kusunokimasahige Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Might have had a bit of a lucky escape today i think... bid on this item : http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... MEDWX%3AIT It said Yari arrowhead but i thought it was a yari spear considering the size, 42.5 cm including tang, 2 cm width, 13.5 cm tip. Now i am a little confused with Yari sizes. I have seen quite long ones, and some smaller ones. Is there any good book out there which describes yari tip sizes ? Best wishes, KM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 "Japanese POLEARMS R.M.Knutsen (1963) This is the definitive English language book on Japanese polearms. Historical material traces development and usage. Knutsen goes into great detail on all know variants and koshirae. Additionally, the text surveys yanone and lists prominent swordsmiths known to have forged polearms. Extensive illustrations: both line drawing and b&w plates; index, and glossary. 271 pages, 7½ x 10" hardcover $225" http://www.satcho.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusunokimasahige Posted March 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Domo arogato gozarimasu Jean-dono !! KM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbvac Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Jean: Great reference but as I have no interest in yari I wonder if I could beg an answer to the original question? Based on arrowheads I have seen I would tend to agree with KM that this piece is a yari . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Brian, Have a look at the description: SANKAKU YARI a triangular cross-section Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Green Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 That is a yari. They range from 3 in. to 30 in. in blade length. A 5 in. yari will kill or mame you very nicely. You see many in the 5-10 in. range. The famous Samurai yari fighters, seemed to like the bit longer 12-24 in blades. You can do a lot of slash cutting with the longer blades. All the edges are hardened steel, just like the swords. On a good direct thrust, most will go right through armor of the time. Mark G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusunokimasahige Posted March 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Interesting indeed ! well 100 US$ was too much for a yari i need for re-enactment purposes only.... I got a little confused by the auction title which was : LONG IRON Japanese YARI YANONE YAJIRI ARROWHEAD And then halfway through the auction in small letters : sankaku yari... I have read (online) that pole sizes varied considerably, from the superlong pole attached to the Jumonji Jari Kevin is selling at the moment to more easily wielded examples. It surprises me though, that the Japanese seem to have gone for such small spear tips, notwithstanding the larger bladed Omi Yari type, compared to some of the "giant" European spear tips we find through the ages, from Greek to late Medieval and the premodern era, though Tudor and early 17th century pikes did have small tips... KM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbvac Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Jean: Never even looked !! Just read the measurements on the original post and went from there as it seemed much too large for an arrowhead for anything !! That said the "title" is LONG IRON Japanese YARI YANONE YAJIRI ARROWHEAD, probably should add some more just to confuse all ! BB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estcrh Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 That said the "title" is LONG IRON Japanese YARI YANONE YAJIRI ARROWHEAD, probably should add some more just to confuse all ! A method to get anyone who searches for any of those words to see their listing, figuring that someone searching for yanone etc might also be interested in yari. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 Henk-Jan, The spear tip looks as though it may have some water or fire damage, and the Nakago looks shortened. One reason for the popularity of small spearheads may be that the softest and easiest target was the eyes. Ashigaru were encouraged to thrust up under the Mabisashi towards the exposed face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 Another reason for the short yari and smaller blades was that it was popular to carry a short shafted yari with a blade of 3 to 5 inches inside a palanquin for protection against bandits etc. This shorter weapon was ready for use all the time, whereas a sword or other sheathed weapon could not be drawn until the occupant of the palanquin had alighted. Palanquin yari also came in jumonji style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusunokimasahige Posted March 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 Thank you all ! Very interesting to read about the palanquin Yari. Well, as soon as i have a tip i will need to remount it on a new pole, so maybe Keith or Eric know how to go about that the best. I wont make the pole as long as the one you could see on Kevin's photo though, but will probably go for the medium / smaller sized length of about 2,5 to 3 or 4.5 meters. About this size: So when will find a fair yari blade i will have to mount both a Naginata as well as a yari in the near future... i saw fittings available so that is the least of the problems. Its more the technique. Drilling it out or splitting the wood in two and rebinding it... But i guess you will know KM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 KM. Yes we probably would......... If not us then somebody else on the board without doubt. However, being responsible types we would probably suggest you get such things done professionally, particularly since you are going to be waving them wildly about in re-enactments. Since merely owning a naginata and/or a yari does not confer upon the owner, the knowledge of how those weapons were correctly used, I assume you are not trained in their use, and we wouldnt want your fellow re-enactors injured by blades flying out of their mountings from a botched mounting job would we? (Although the bloodshed may add a certain novel realism to the re-enactment). Before you get that far however, you will need to secure, pay for and have shipped, two appropriate lengths of Japanese red oak, fashioned into naginata and yari ebu (shafts). Good luck with that! The last new naginata ebu I purchased cost me the better part of $400 US landed, and took 4 months to arrive :D Eric. Hmmmmm. Sounds like a market opportunity is opening up! Being sworn to non profit and penury by virtue of our membership, its a pity we cant charge for this kind of service requested via the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusunokimasahige Posted March 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 Keith, thank you for the information on the Japanese red oak ebu. I know they are expensive. About the mounting, which has to be firm and tight and the "wielding" during any display i can assure you they are not intended for mock battle use, and certainly not untill i (and my eventual kata partner) have had enough training, and then even that remains to be seen. My so-jutsu as well as naginatajutsu training is still not of the level which would make that possible. And apart from that i would need permission of my sensei if intending to show any special katori or other kobujutsu techniques. So for battle display i would need people who just like me, are sufficiently trained in Katori or another school which practices kobujutsu. Iai, and at least Kendo and naginatado would be far better using shinai. So, swords used in mock battles (if there will be any such displays at all) will be blunt iaito or bokken, same goes for the Naginata and Yari. Yumi would be used on a preset range. Teppo, if used at all would be blank firing black powder charges. At present, in the Netherlands i am the only one keeping myself occupied with and intending to start a serious samurai re-enactment group. The goal of this group will be to display the Dutch-Japanese relations apart from the Sengoku period as well as the forced opening of Japan in 1852-4 by Commodore perry. So the mandatory trip of the Dutch Dejima "opperhoofd" and his fellow traders to Edo, the "Hofreis", as well as other parts of those specific eras will be displayed. That is the benefit of the Samurai, there was not that much change in Samurai attire so the Samurai part can always be augmented by the European counterpart in different uniforms. That way you can get both European as well as Asiatic people to join in. Those larger than myself, above 168cm and European will be Portuguese, VOC Dutch or USA/British from various periods. The smaller members will be bushi, citizens, ashigaru, monks etc. (that is the outline, and education is far more important than any battle) If the group at all would ever reach such numbers. So rest assured, sharp weapons will not be in use but are for display and explanation purposes only. Whenever we display with our Roman group, we do not engage in any mock battles (unless thoroughly choreographed and practiced) because we have museum quality, ie sharp gladii. same goes for Artillery pieces, we do not shoot into the audience...... Hope that reassures you a little About the mounting service.... There is a For sale section : you could put an advert out for Remounting services for polearms... Unless you took the NMB Keppan, of course... then you would not want Hachiman to send his wrath down upon you KM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbvac Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 Heres a mounted yari that is only 46" long - blade is 4 1/2" so maybe it is one of the smaller kind for inside a palaquin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Brian. Nice little yari! Thats exactly the type that was used in palanquins. This one seems to be of fairly good quality and in good condition too. The nakago may not have been shortened. Often the nakago on better examples of these shorter yari was truncated and 'blocky' like this one. There wasnt a great deal of ebu to work with after all, and the longer tapered nakago would have used up more of the ebu length than was necessary. Is this yari yours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusunokimasahige Posted March 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 I quite like the lacquerwork on this ebu, as well as the hamon on the yari itself. So the stocky nakago is more related to palanquin yari ? KM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 I dont know that I would make that connection as an exclusively positive indicator. In things nihonto there are always exceptions, but certainly the stocky nakago that I have seen have been related more to these shorter blades. I am also in mind of other smaller yari blades with the more traditional yari nakago which are longer and more tapered, apparently having been shortened in order to be remounted in these shorter ebu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Genuine 'Kago' yari are said to be quite rare. Reproductions do come up every so often. Many old yari were cut in half, radically shortened in the confusion at the end of Edo for ease of use indoors against sudden ambushes or intrusions. I have one at home. Such short yari are to be distinguished from Kago (palanquin) yari. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Thanks Piers. I couldn't for the life of me recall the correct name for palanquin yari. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Heres a mounted yari that is only 46" long - blade is 4 1/2" so maybe it is one of the smaller kind for inside a palanquin Looking at this I am reminded of a "pillow" spear or "hand" spear I had for a time, called I believe a "te yari". It had similar furniture, but the point was a largish arrowhead with a short tang. With a pearl-shell chip lacquered pole it had a Meiji look about it. I couldn't initially recall the name so I went looking for it on google. I also found some other links on yari that seem appropriately placed in this discussion: http://www.koryu.com/library/harmstrong1.html Then I found reference to a book by Serge Mol titled "Classical weaponry of Japan: special weapons and tactics of the martial arts" Then another essay on yari http://www.yachigusaryu.com/essays/yari ... d_use.html And another http://home.online.no/~rogelia/yari.html One of the 47 Ronin apparently carried a te yari http://www.maqld.com/legend_of_the_47_ronin.htm So that's my little ramble around some interesting reading I haven't seen before. I hope it is of interest to some of our members. Regards, BaZZa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estcrh Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Having recently seen a palanquin at the Return of the Samurai exhibit in Canada I think that the type of yari used while inside one would have to be quite small, more like the one pictured here. I started an image category on wiki commons called "Palanquins of Japan", you can see how small the interior space was. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Categ ... s_of_Japan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusunokimasahige Posted March 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 So could one say that through the ages from the gempei war to the edo period, the tip sizes became smaller and the poles themselves larger depending on their usefulness in battle situations i.e., that peacetime saw the evolution to smaller tips...? And that for instance the use of the Omi Yari died out ? What also baffles me at times are the blunt tipped yari, were they for ceremonial use only ? Dont think you can do much piercing with those myself... KM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Green Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 I have this short bladed, roundish point yari. Three sided, all edged hardened, and very sharp. I was told, years ago, and it seemed to make a lot of sense, that these short tipped yari blades were used by mounted yari. That, with the power, and kinetic energy behind any yari used from horseback, you didn't want a very long blade. If your yari gets stuck in something (flesh,armor,whatever), it can be dragged out of your grip. If you punched someone with this and sank it just a half inch or so, that person, would likely be done for the day. (ever had a puncture wound!) Plus the force of the energy, could easily break bones, and other nasty things. So it did make sense to me, having done all kinds of silly weapons strikes from horseback. It is very easy to get things stuck, and or, injure yourself with your own weapon while bouncing around on a half ton of power. The nice little signed yari, that I have done most of my silly horseback antics with is this one. It has a 4 in blade. And this will puncture just about anything. From horseback, or ground, you don't need much blade to put someone out of the fight. Plus, when you are spear fighting, the last thing you want, is for your tip to get stuck in something for more then a second. That usually spells death to you. I think it is very likely, that as more non Samurai were added to the battlefield, the short 4-8 in yari, became the norm. Easier to make, and less steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Having recently seen a palanquin at the Return of the Samurai exhibit in Canada I think that the type of yari used while inside one would have to be quite small, more like the one pictured here.I started an image category on wiki commons called "Palanquins of Japan", you can see how small the interior space was. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Categ ... s_of_Japan IMHO the one you shows is trying to resemble an uchine, not a short type of Yari. Different use, more as javelin : EDIT TO ADD : first 2 attachments shouldn't be put on Wikipedia and the like. Against Copyright (they shouldn't be posted here as well...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Green Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 That is pretty cool looking carlo. Does that wooden piece on the left act as a throwing handle as well? Like an Adaladal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 That is pretty cool looking carlo. Does that wooden piece on the left act as a throwing handle as well? Like an Adaladal? Should be the saya, AFAIK. Wooden hook for Obi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 This one should fit better to the description of a "Palanquin Spear". Again, I don't own the copyright of the pics, so same rules as the above 2 should be applied. Brian (or the original owner) please PM me if you've enough of my copyrights infringments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Brian (or the original owner) please PM me if you've enough of my copyrights infringments. All in the name of education. I'll remove them if asked to..but I have no problem with them. Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estcrh Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 first 2 attachments shouldn't be put on Wikipedia and the like. For your education and everyone else Carlo, no one can post any image on any wikipedia project with out stating OWNERSHIP of the image or stating that the image is in the PUBLIC DOMAIN etc, as in over a certain age etc. In addition all images must state the source of the image. Any image found on wikipedia or a related project such as the image repository wikipedia commons that is found to be wrongly posted can be challenged and the image will be removed. Certain images are still not allowed to be posted on a wikipedia project even if you take it yourself, copyright is very complex. Here is a link to an image upload form, it is very specific as to what and what is not allowed. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Upload Images of antique Japanese and samurai items that you OWN can be freely posted on any wikipedia project. Art work, sculpture, photos , and commercial items etc all have different copyright rules. It's all about freedom All users of files found on Wikimedia Commons must be given the Four Freedoms: The freedom to use and perform the work. The freedom to study the work and apply the information. The freedom to redistribute copies. The freedom to create and distribute derivative works. Traditional copyright law does not grant these freedoms, and unless noted otherwise, everything you find on the web is copyrighted and not permitted here. In addition, claims of fair use are explicitly NOT and will NEVER be permitted on Commons. Please only upload files that either: are in the public domain in the source country (author died more than 70 years ago) and in the U.S., or that are explicitly covered by a license which grants the Four Freedoms. See the list of acceptable licenses, and please note that these licences are irrevocable. Also, please only upload useful files; Wikimedia Commons is for educational or informational content. For works which are your own, please use the form for uploading own works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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