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KANEMOTO?

IchiNi

By IchiNi
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IchiNi Contributor

IchiNi

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Dear all,

 

i've been offered this blade (see attached pics) it really does look nice but comes with an obscure ceritficate (pics attached). the seller claims it to be KANEMOTO of MINO. i'm sort of doubtful.

 

any advice|comments would be greatly appreciated

 

cheers

vlad

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Surfson Grand Master

Surfson

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Looks like a very attractive blade and worthy of study. The sanbonsugi appears to be there, and to move through the kissaki, one indicator that it may be an older blade. Unfortunately, the kesho polish seems to obscure the hamon throughout.

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cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

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Yes, looks like a very fine Seki Minoto, but, Chris it does attribute to Magoroku Kanemoto, I believe. 孫六兼元 in kinmei 金銘. John

 

 

Yes, I noticed that....the sanbon sugi seems much to uniform compared to the Magoroku blades I have seen....everyone is entitled to their own opinion...

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John A Stuart

John A Stuart

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This is one of the things about Kanemoto. He was the student of Kanesada of Akasaka as was Nosada. His hamon had enormous variety and some were quite regular, although the sanbonsuji hamon he creates is often described as irregular especially when compared to later smiths of the line. The sanbonsuji hamon that Jean linked to at Aoi Art is irregular. Another thing is that Kanemoto was not noted for jizo boshi although this does have it. I show two Kanemoto regular hamon, one of which is sanbonsuji. The larger photo is a Minoto that by hamon alone would never be attributed correctly. This sword needs to be studied closely no matter the origami or kinmei. John

Kanemoto-hamon-003.jpg

Kanemoto-hamon-001.jpg

who-is-that.jpg

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george trotter Grand Master

george trotter

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Show us the opposite side of this obscure certificate, if you please.

reinhard

 

An interesting sword Vlad. In the interests of learning/teaching the memebers, maybe it would be helpful to NOT show the other side of the origami until others (and some have already) give us their opinion on the maker/age/mei/quality etc. Your pics are quite good. There is quite enough shown to at least offer an opinion.

 

The origami gives a long comment on Kanemoto from among the Kanemoto name generations from MeiO to Showa. I know some people buy/sell and like/dislike based on what an origami says but most learning is done without this aid...it is always a good learning tool to listen to the knowledgeable come to an opinion and then see if it is confirmed (or not) by the standing of who issued the origami. It is the same principle as kantaei of the blade and then look at the mei.

I for one would be interested to see this happen here. How about it knowledgeable members?

Regards,

George.

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IchiNi Contributor

IchiNi

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Dear all,

 

thank you thank you thank you :) much appreciated! well, i havent got the reverse side of the origami handy anyway. personally, i've got some good feeling about this blade :D but its kind of pricey... also, i can never understand why one would go and get this sort of a certificate rather than get an NBTHK/NTHK paper if the blade is worth it. i know i must be too naive :roll:

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Brian

Brian

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I am sure others will be along to mention the few down sides here..but let me just point out that the kissaki has been repaired sometime, and not exactly perfectly. Must have had a broken kissaki and they didn't repair the lines perfectly in the ko-shinogi etc.

Nice looking sword, but you mention it is pricey, and I would love to know does that mean $3000 or $30,000..or where inbetween? Nice sword at the lower end of that, maybe not as much at the higher end. So depends on your idea of pricey I guess.

I am guessing Reinhard also had other motives besides simple identification when he asked for the additional origami pics....

 

Brian

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John A Stuart

John A Stuart

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That's what is frustrating in this hobby. At a price most would expect to pay for a car, we have no equivalent to a readily available mechanic to assess the condition of a sword. We have to rely on the honour of the seller, the documentation and our own judgement, each of which can be faulty, or not. If this is a legitimate sword by Magoroku, it is a very low price and may be a good buy. I do not know how you can verify this sword without a relationship with the seller that would allow you to have it sent to be assessed by an independent judgement panel, especially given that having it judged is such a long process with all the logistics involved. Myself, given my passion for this school, wish you all the best. John

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george trotter Grand Master

george trotter

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Hi Brian,

i agree about the kissaki and there are certain points I would want to look at more closely as well.

 

John, you have hit on the point of this post.The main point (I think) was about this actually being "Kanemoto" or not, or which one etc. I see however that Vlad is going away from that point and is sidetracked to a discussion about the origami...he intends to post the other side of the origami "ASAP", which will only tell us the author of the origami...wasn't he asking about the "author" of the blade?. Oh well ....I had kinda hoped the knowledgeable might share their expertise (as some have done)...there is probably a lot more knowledge that could be imparted to Vlad and the members based on what the sword says before the origami and it's author are discussed.

 

just a thought.

George.

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Jean

Jean

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BTW, if sanbonsugi is a Kanemoto trade mark, there were not the only Mino smiths to have implemented this style of hamon. I know of a perfect Kanehisa with a splendid sanbonsugi

 

16 K$ for a O suriage Magoroku is Ok, otherwise too expensive (it is not the first generation neither)

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John A Stuart

John A Stuart

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Very true, Jean, and others. Unsigned Minoto are very hard to attribute, especially suriage. This sword does exhibit (by these pics) a very nicely forged itame (mokume, let's not start that again) hada and that at least leads one to believe the sword is of a certain quality. Because of Mino swords having such a white steel kesho is used a lot to accentuate the hamon. It makes photographing them more difficult. I have noticed that earlier period Minoto have a darker steel and this includes Magoroku Kanemoto. This whiteness becomes very clear in sue-Koto and shinto blades. Another feature that Magoroku swords sometimes exhibit is utsuri, but, rarely. John

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IchiNi Contributor

IchiNi

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Hi Brian,

i agree about the kissaki and there are certain points I would want to look at more closely as well.

 

John, you have hit on the point of this post.The main point (I think) was about this actually being "Kanemoto" or not, or which one etc. I see however that Vlad is going away from that point and is sidetracked to a discussion about the origami...he intends to post the other side of the origami "ASAP", which will only tell us the author of the origami...wasn't he asking about the "author" of the blade?. Oh well ....I had kinda hoped the knowledgeable might share their expertise (as some have done)...there is probably a lot more knowledge that could be imparted to Vlad and the members based on what the sword says before the origami and it's author are discussed.

 

just a thought.

George.

 

George, thank you very much for this, you're absolutely right. i, in fact, initially posted the origami just to find out if the issuing organisation is trustworthy at all. i also mentioned that the very fact the blade doesn't have the "standard papers" (NBTHK/NTHK) seems a bit odd provided it attributes to "Mogoroku Kanemoto"... i may be paranoid, i know :)

John, you've formulated this perfectly - it is a very very frustrating hobby indeed :(

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Chishiki Proficient

Chishiki

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Hi all. The nagasa of the sword and the hamon do not point to '1st generation Magoroku' or either of the next two generations. In my opinion. Also I feel the mei tries to draw you to a conlusion of 2nd generation Kanemoto 'magoroku'. I can speak with a little experience here as once I purchased a big katana, sombonsugi, (gold mei) kanemoto that was sold to me as being magoroku. I was about 75cm nagasa and osuriage. Subsequent Japanese experts placed this sword as much later, 5th generation or younger.

 

I think your initial insticts are good and the blade needs appraisal/shinsa from NBTHK. Forget the gold mei and consider it a mumei o'suriage katana of which there are many in Japan. 2nd and 3rd magoroku would be a good aim, but many of these swords are tired, go for a healthy example.

 

Mark

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Ed Harbulak Collaborator

Ed Harbulak

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For $16,000 it isn't too hard to find a signed sword in perfect polish with NBTHK tokubetsu hozon papers. Just from a money standpoint, this Kanemoto, if indeed that's what it is, isn't any bargain considering the shortcommings that have been pointed out. It is a nice sword, just not worth the asking price.

Ed Harbulak

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reinhard Proficient

reinhard

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I am guessing Reinhard also had other motives besides simple identification when he asked for the additional origami pics....

 

Quite right.

 

The origami says: katana / kin-zogan-mei / Magoroku Kanemoto/ Daiei(era) / Mino(province)

 

This leaves no room for interpretation. Since it is quite clear this is NOT Seki-no-Magoroku's work, I was wondering where these papers come from (thanks for the link, Thierry).

 

Many of the possible objections against a Magoroku-attribution have been mentioned. Good job.

 

Additionally I would like you to focus on the qualities of kin-zogan-mei more. This one seems to be of bad quality and was made no earlier than Meiji times, probably even later.

Kin-zogan-mei are easy to apply, but they are also revealing much about the maker and the time when they were made. Unfortunately many people (especially Westerners) are loosing their cool when seeing gold, even if it's just a tiny amount on a nakago. "Where there is gold there must be something precious". Fraudsters knew and know about this. Selling worthless claims by presenting gold-covered pieces of lead as real nuggets worked the same.

 

Anyway, nidai KANEMOTO is a legend. From the days of warfare in Muromachi times to Yukio Mishima's seppuku in 20th century: Every samurai in the past wanted and every would-be samurai at present would like to possess a saijo-o-wazamono by Seki-no-Magoroku. Forgeries in his name and false attributions are countless.

 

reinhard

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george trotter Grand Master

george trotter

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So......now that we have discovered the author of the origami, is it only now that the origami description and the sword characteristics don't match? It is only now that this mismatch can be commented on? What has changed, other than knowing the author is Kobayashi Yukinobu of Musashiya? We have been able to see the origami attribution since the original posting...we could see that it was very specific in its attribution...we could see that the sword did not conform to the attribution. Why did some feel they could not say this until the author was known?

Please...this is embarrassing.

 

George.

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