tsuba / opinions please

[raaay]

Here is a iron tsuba that i swoped many years ago for a Tanto

sum might find that extreme ! but i still think i got the better end

off the deal.

 

As you can see it has bee over cleaned at sometime [ not me ]

 

i was wondering if their was any DIY patanation tips out there

that could be shared ! without needing to be magician ?

 

as you will see the tsuba has a wonderfull carved dragon on the front

with part off the dragon showing on the reverse .

 

 

any opinions on the tsuba / schooll age / etc.

 

thanks ,ray.

[Brian]

Beautiful tsuba Ray,

If you hadn't told us, I would have assumed it was not iron. Lovely carving!

I think on something of this workmanship, I would be inclinded to have any patina work done by a professional. I don't know if the good patina secrets will ever be revealed to us, and in most cases this might be for the best

Would love to see some close-ups of the carvings.

 

Regards,

Brian

[raaay]

Brian

 

 

thanks for your reply ,your adivice sounds like a good advice ,thanks .

 

will try and get close up shots off the details and update the post latter

 

and i can confirm it is iron , the details on it and the surface

textures as you can see are very beautifuly exicuted.

 

one thing i forgot to say about the tsuba in the previous post was what colour off patanation would be correct ??

 

thanks. ray

[KjetilK]

I have collected coins and medals for many years and I know there are some ways to enhance metal objects with heat, oil, sulphur &c. You only need to google it, ask a silversmith (or even a blacksmith) or a chemistry teacher to learn something about it. But in my experience the best way to treat antiques is to let them develop their own patina over the years. Artificial patina is easy to spot and it does not look good compared to naturally developed patina.

 

best, Kjetil

[John A Stuart]

Hi Ray, Of course get a pro. I do not get it though. What do you mean over cleaned? It looks clean for sure, but, what patina should it have beyond what is there. It looks good to me. No shiny substrate, no blotches from more work done in one spot than the other and the same colour throughout even in the carving. Why mess with something that looks OK, is there something I can't see via pics? John

[raaay]

Hi

 

 

thanks for your thoughts on the tsuba

 

i suppose what i am trying to say re patina is that i feel their has been

at some point a patanation their , i think my photographic techniques do

not show the proper colours ETC and again i think you would need too see the tsuba ?

 

but perhaps i am wrong may be as John sugests its fine as it is !.

 

if the tsuba is off some age why has it not got a more deeper natural patina ?

than it has at the moment ,or will it naturally change with age ?

 

look forward to more comments .

 

ray.

[KjetilK]

Patina developes as the surface of the metal reacts to the environment it's kept in. So, if you keep it in a drawer, in a box of the proper wood, or something like that, it will probably not develop any heavy patina over the years. But if you bury it with the flowers in the garden, it's bound to rust and develop patina. But that is of course not a way to treat a nice tsuba.

 

I would just have kept it safe and in a proper box. It looks great and it's probably not advicable to enhance it's appearance with any easy and fast methods.

 

I have seen a lot of coins ruined by cleaning and repatination. I guess it's the same for tsuba.

 

best, Kjetil

[John A Stuart]

Hi Ray, If this tsuba was made during the bakumatsu or early Meiji periods I think it would look just like this. Not much patina would form as compared to 500 yr old examples. Also if it was kept unmounted and in a drawer, say. John Here is an example of one from the period.

[Stephen]

without the flash looks like it might have deeper color

[Ford Hallam]

Hi fellas,

 

reading through the posts in this thread it seems to me that there are a few misconceptions regarding the nature of iron patinas. So, at the risk of sounding arrogant ( who? me? ) here are a few observations which I hope may clarify some issues.

 

In the Japanese metalworking tradition iron sword fittings have always been finished with a basic rust patina. The object at it's time of manufacture would have had to have been functionally and aesthetically fit for use. Any further enhancement of the original patina, due to gentle handling etc is, naturally, an added bonus and much valued. We should note however, that this kind of "improvement" is a refining process on an already very expertly applied finish. The underlying material is also of the greatest importance here. Surface qualities, like tekkotsu for instance, have not developed over time, they were revealed by the maker and are a consequence of the distribution or concentration of the carbon in the steel.

 

The idea that the patina on older tsuba has developed over time is a misunderstanding of the basic processes at work. The most commonly seen such "developmental" patinas are just very badly rusted surfaces, severe corrosion . There is no question that gentle handling over many years will add a special glow to a fine tsuba but it must have a sound and deep surface finish to begin with.

 

The more elaborately carved iron or steel tsuba of the later Edo period rarely have the kind of depth of colour or wet glow that the finest of the earlier sukashi guards exhibit. It is debatable why this should be so but perhaps tastes changed, or the effort required to create the earlier finish was considered unnecessary on more elaborately worked metal. Would it be seen on all those scales? for instance. Would the clientele appreciate the subtleties of the older patina? By the Bakamatsu period we even see russet patinas, which are rather dry and somewhat coarse by comparison to the earlier tsuba of the late Momoyama and early Edo periods.

 

The tsuba in question has in fact been completely stripped of all trace of patina, probably by the use of rust remover. The pewter-like colour is not unpleasant but the piece is now unfinished and vulnerable. If it was a non-ferrous piece I'd suggest Nara school, but as it's iron, I hesitate, Kinai might be a thought. In any case it ought to have a good, solid dark brown, almost black colour with a mid-range sort of gloss. In my opinion the finish on the tsuba John posted is a little suspect, (sorry John, just my feeling, based on the image.)

 

and with regard to any kind of D.I.Y. quick fix, there are none that are going to deliver the results you should expect. It's a bit like making souffles. You can find the recipes anywhere, but it doesnt mean you can make one to satisfy Gordon Ramsey! :D

 

regards, Ford

[Mike]

No one will satisfy Gordon Ramsey Mike

[KjetilK]

Thank you, Ford. Then I learned something new today also!

 

[Bungo]

the cook ?

 

milt the ronin

[Ford Hallam]

Hey Milt, I reckon he'd prefer "chef"

 

Mike, you may be right, but then again he's rubbish at carving steel. :D

 

Kjetilk, I'm always pleased to help clarify these technical matters, thanks for being receptive. We all have to learn from others on this path.

 

regards all, Ford

[John A Stuart]

Hi Ford, The pic of the tsuba I posted was done with a scanner. I don't trust the reproduction sometimes, so, I took a new digital photo of it for you to see. I wish to know if the surface seems suspect still. I paid a fair buck on this one and if it is not right, well. The hitsuana have slight rusting and the shiny areas on the inside at the tagane marks that show a short period of mounting. The tassels show some wear to the sivering with a copper sheen coming through, though, the gold overlay seems thick and pristine. Looks good to me and is just over 100 years old but I do not want to be fooled. John

[Ford Hallam]

Hi John,

 

I'm naturally a little reluctant to offer any opinion while claiming to be infallible, particularly when unable to actually hold the item in question. But I will suggest the following;

 

If you look at the actual texture of the iron, not just the larger overall form of the plate, it strikes me as being rather featureless. I have to ask myself, how was this plate processed, what working methods resulted in this finish? The colour of the patina is also still a little unconvincing in relation to what one would expect on a decent Edo period tsuba. Remember, in the Meiji period there were an awful lot of unemployed metalworkers around, not all of them sword related either. There are many tsuba like objects knocking around, that date from this time, some even very good examples of art metalwork. We face a similar situation today, not every piece of metal with a nakago-ana shaped hole in the middle is a tsuba.

Another thing to wonder about is the fact that the tassles are copper that has been plated. At the time we assume this was made silver was'nt all that expensive so why resort to plating? This is often a giveaway as far as I'm concerned. You should carefully examine the Shishi too, to see if you can discern any wear, as it is also undoubtably plated. When I say plated in this context I am not refering to older methods of fire or mercury gilding but to modern electro-plating.

I'm sorry to be so blunt but I genuinely think that it is in everyone's best interests to be aware of the varieties of "tsuba" that are on offer and what they really represent. In this field we should always remember that real beauty is more than skin deep.

I hope my comments are recieved in the spirit they are offered and that they are of some use in helping to evaluate later pieces.

 

regards, Ford

[raaay]

HI ,thanks to all, for all the feed back.

 

 

Ford

 

if you are still watching this post ,i take all the points on board, and what i was trying to say badly was that the tsuba was over cleaned wrongly by someone .

and i did feel that as you said it should have a nice deep brown / black patina

 

so the next question .

 

1. how much would it cost ?? to have it professionaly done .

 

 

2. and apart from yourself, is their anyone in the [ UK ] you would recommend that can do this type off work.

 

3. is it worth having done ? and is it good enough to submit for papers ?

is the ultimate question.

 

any more opinions !!!

 

thanks.

 

ray.

[Ford Hallam]

Hello Ray,

 

I'll pm you regarding the more commercial matters. I do think it would be worth having the patina restored though. As for shinsa, you'd have to decide what the papers mean to you, personally I would study lots of images in books and enjoy the hunt to find like examples. You may find a dead ringer that is actually signed.

 

cheers, Ford