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Will it be possible to restore this sword? UPDATE-PICS PG 4!


DaveM4P99

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Thanks for the information Chris - very good to know before I run into purchasing (one day) a Nihonto that needs polish. Even the Canadian dollar is stronger than ours on most days now, which is not a good sign. Well, at least for those of use here in the U.S. :D .

Personally I'd be interested in seeing the results of the polish done here in the U.S. by this gentleman. Always learning.

 

Curtis R.

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For a quality polish by a reputable polisher in Japan, the standard rate has been about 10,000 yen per inch for quite a long time. Now, with the dollar falling over the last couple of years from 120 yen or so to now around 75 yen, a historic low, rates in dollars are more like $130-$140 per inch.

 

Habaki and the shirasaya are not included in the rate above. A decent habaki and shirasaya will add roughly $1000 to the cost.

 

There are also registration, shipping and insurance, and agent fees to include. It gets very expensive....

 

But there is nothing as expensive as a cheap, amateur US polish....

 

Chris - I assume this is a photo of you with David Hofhine?

 

http://www.swordpolisher.com/photos.html

 

Do you not trust his work?

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I know David quite well but as I have told him many times, he shouldn't be working on collectible blades. He does a lot of work on showa/gunto/iaito and swords that are tired, flawed, and otherwise not collectible, and does a decent job. I have no issue with that but would not give him something that was collectible because he doesn't have the training to do the work on the level that I have come to expect from professionally trained polishers.

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There's that word, "elitist" again; guess I'm guilty and need to mend my ways. If I ever need serious heart surgery I'm going to the guy down the block who read a book about it. He doesn't charge as much as the surgeons at the hospital and all his surviving patients say nice things about him.

 

Seriously though, years ago I had the opportunity to see a blade that had been polished by Mr. Hofhine. It was a large, early Shinto katana by a well respected smith. Unfortunately, an also large blister (fukure) had appeared in the mono-uchi during polish and had rendered the blade close to worthless. There are 2 ways a polisher can learn how to spot a fukure about to appear and what to do about it: he can be taught by his teacher or he can learn the hard way. If Mr. Hofhine keeps at polishing, and he keeps getting lots of swords to polish, eventually most every type of problem will have presented and he will have learned the hard way how to deal with all of them. And many of his customers will have learned something else the hard way.

Grey

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There's that word, "elitist" again; guess I'm guilty and need to mend my ways. If I ever need serious heart surgery I'm going to the guy down the block who read a book about it. He doesn't charge as much as the surgeons at the hospital and all his surviving patients say nice things about him.

 

Seriously though, years ago I had the opportunity to see a blade that had been polished by Mr. Hofhine. It was a large, early Shinto katana by a well respected smith. Unfortunately, an also large blister (fukure) had appeared in the mono-uchi during polish and had rendered the blade close to worthless. There are 2 ways a polisher can learn how to spot a fukure about to appear and what to do about it: he can be taught by his teacher or he can learn the hard way. If Mr. Hofhine keeps at polishing, and he keeps getting lots of swords to polish, eventually most every type of problem will have presented and he will have learned the hard way how to deal with all of them. And many of his customers will have learned something else the hard way.

Grey

 

OK understood...And I did not mean to offend with any of my comments.

 

Well...It does sound like, so far, I have been lucky, and that Mr. Hofhine hasn't encountered any blistering or other fatal flaws that he couldn't deal with...and that the blade is taking well to the polish...despite the pitting and rust.

 

I guess we will see. I will post detailed, macro pics of the blade as soon as I get it back...and you guys can tell me how it turned out.

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I'd be interested in seeing pictures, if you would like to post them...

 

Just for the record, I agree with Chris and Grey to a large extent, but...there are some Nihonto that just aren't worth the time and expense of a top quality Japanese restoration. That being said, it's VERY important to know what level of restoration your sword IS deserving of. If you can't determine this and your polisher can't determine this, then you risk doing a disservice to an irreplacable piece of history. It's always better to overshoot than undershoot on the quality level of a restoration.

 

Since this is an important blade to you, I hope it turns out well and that you enjoy it...

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Hi All - what can I expect to pay for a new Saya and Tsuka? Nothing too fancy...Probably just a simple wooden one like the one "falconj" just posted a photo of (no tsuba or other fittings).

 

And what if I went with the military style, and got a tsuka with wrappings and fittings (re-using my old tsuba, habaki, and end-cap)?

 

I was quoted approx. $1,500 by a local nihonto antiques store, for a new saya and tsuka, if they re-used my fittings.

 

Is this about right?

 

Should I be posting this in the other forum section?

 

Thanks!

 

Dave

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OK great thanks for the link as a reference!

 

So around $125 for a wakizashi wrapping service, and about $90 for a newly carved wooden handle. No extra for fittings, since I can re-use my shin-gunto fittings.

 

I think a new lacquered saya is out of my price range for now...so probably just a shirasaya...for what? around $400?

 

Sounds like the next step to me.

 

This is proving to be a fun and expensive project! Thanks to everyone for the help so far. I will post pics as soon as it is back from the polisher.

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.......... The blade has a great deal of historical and sentimental value to me, and the fact that I know how it was captured during WWII makes it all the more interesting.

 

I have no problem paying for a full polish if it is going to improve the sword at all, since it means a lot to me. It is, afterall, a true nihonto blade made by an accomplished swordsmith over 200 years ago...I feel like it deserves to be restored ...........

 

I understand your motivation, Dave, and admire you for exerting such great effort -- and spending so much money -- in preserving this piece of history. You are a good custodian!

 

I personally try to keep antiquities that I purchase in the same condition in which I receive them (not always possible when structural repairs are required) for that represents their total history -- blemishes and flaws included. Of course I realize that they may have been cleaned, repaired or restored to some extent during their lifetime by previous owners, but again, that is part of their history that I try to preserve. I do especially admire surfaces that have grown lovely with much handling and use over a long period of time (patina) and exert maximum effort to preserve them.

 

But there are no correct answers or solutions in this regard and I wish you great success in attaining your own goals.

 

James

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Yes I too try to keep antiques and artifacts as they were given to me. I have a good collection of firearms (both modern and old)...and war memorabilia...I agree that their imperfections are part of their history...

 

However this blade sat in a chest in a flooded barn for decades...and acquired a lot of rust and pitting...which is not the true history of the blade...and definitely not the history that I want to preserve.

 

Hence the polish job and restoration.

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I think I may have the tsuka rebuilt and rewrapped in the existing shin gunto mounts that I have...then get a simple shirasaya for just the blade...not the tang.

 

Is that appropriate? I don't think I can afford a nice fancy saya just yet, but I do want to protect the blade...and have a WWII tsuka.

 

Thanks!

 

Dave

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OK so the people at Nihonto Antiques in Long Island (NY) quoted me the following:

 

$400 for a rebuilt tsuka with my current shin-gunto fittings.

 

$650 for a shirasaya.

 

Seems a little high for both, no? Other sites I saw said $125 for wrapping service, and $90 for a rebuilt wood core/handle.

 

Thanks for any advice.

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Dave,

I think what you are planning - a new tsuka and wrap, would be a good step. If it were me, I would also have the shirasaya made, and display the empty complete fittings with the sword in shirasaya.

For wrapping services, you can contact David McDonald too: http://www.montanairon.com/tsukamaki.html

 

Brian

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Dave,

I think what you are planning - a new tsuka and wrap, would be a good step. If it were me, I would also have the shirasaya made, and display the empty complete fittings with the sword in shirasaya.

For wrapping services, you can contact David McDonald too: http://www.montanairon.com/tsukamaki.html

 

Brian

 

Thanks Brian. I emailed David and inquired about a new tsuka build using my WWII shin gunto fittings.

 

I do know I need a shirasaya, but for $650-700, I don't think I can afford a rebuilt tsuka for another $400 quite yet...

 

But then I am looking toward the future, and maybe thinking I should just get the tsuka rebuilt with full blown fancy saya for around $1,200 to $1,500 total. (price quoted by Nihonto Antiques).

 

Thoughts? Thanks!

 

-David

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Dave,

 

Heading to Manhattan as we speak. I remember someone there who may be able to help know someone on everything else!

 

Hey! Welcome to the big apple.

 

Nihonto Antiques out in Commack, NY (long island) seems good...but is VERY pricey. Around $700 for a shirasaya...$400 for a new tsuka rebuild...and $1,500 for a new tsuka and saya combo. :roll:

 

David McDonald is around $450 for a new tsuka rebuild...and he says it should only be around $325 for a shirasaya using ho-wood.

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  • 3 weeks later...
The nakago is just as important as the blade and should properly be cleaned of growing rust that will continue to harm the whole sword. Ron

Yes, just don't mistake active rust for patina. This should be left to someone who knows what they're doing so it can be PROPERLY done, as Ron says.

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Yes...Actually, I already carefully cleaned the nakago of the crusty, active rust a while ago...so everyone here could translate the mei more easily.

 

For the other side of the nakago (the unsigned part), I will see if I can clean off some of the active rust carefully as well...

 

I know not to remove any of the "patina" though.

 

The blade should be arriving back from the polisher this week. Will post pics soon.

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OK here are pics...I think it turned out GREAT...So I am very happy. Next step...Shirasaya, Tsuka and Saya. I will take very good care of it from now on...clove oil, kept in a cool dry place etc.

 

The one macro shot shows a "Nashiji" or "Konuka" hada if I am not mistaken?

 

BEFORE:

 

_DSC0045.jpg

 

IMG_0295.jpg

 

IMG_0299.jpg

 

AFTER

 

IMG_1498.jpg

 

IMG_1499.jpg

 

IMG_1502.jpg

 

IMG_1504.jpg

 

IMG_1509.jpg

 

IMG_1512.jpg

 

IMG_1513.jpg

 

IMG_1515.jpg

 

IMG_1606.jpg

 

IMG_1530.jpg

 

IMG_1531.jpg

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Oh and doing more research on the Tegarayama Ujishige smiths...

 

member "mdiddy" gave this insight:

 

"You may have cleaned enough. There is a strong resemblance to 3rd generation Tegarayama Ujishige. According to Fujishiro he worked ~1780 in Harima. The whole mei would likely be 'Banshu Tegarayama Fujiwara Ujishige'. We can see the 'Gara','Yama', 'Fuji', and 'Wara' pretty clearly. I can see the beginnings of 'Uji' under 'Wara'. As well, you can slightly see the 'Te' above the 'Gara', particularly in the last photo although its pretty rust-covered. 'Shige' is most definitely there, just rust-covered. I'm assuming 'Ban' and 'Shu' are above the 'Te', though that area is heavily rust-covered and I can see no traces.

 

My resource was Fujishiro, Shinto Hen, pg. 203. The mei in Fujishiro looked spot on for these characters. The yasurime and nakagojiri also match. The 1st and 2nd generation do not look as close from the examples I found. 4th generation Ujishige became Masashige, noted ShinShinTo smith. He signed Ujishige for awhile but his style is different, at least in his Masashige mei. I could not find a 4th generation Ujishige mei by him. Nakagojiri also differ 3rd to 4th generation. My money is on 3rd generation Ujishige.

 

So he says 3rd gen Ujishige (according to his source, was in Harima around 1780)...so 3rd gen Ujishige...not 4th gen, since 4th gen Ujishige became Masashige, and had a different mei style...OK understood...

 

And in this book, it says that 3rd gen Ujishige was actually Masashige's older brother: http://books.google.com/books?id=zPyswmGDBFkC&pg=PA290&dq=tegarayama+ujishige&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oc4PT4fOEoPY0QGe4qSLAw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=tegarayama%20ujishige&f=false

 

However, this source says that 3rd gen Ujishige was the FATHER, no? And he worked around 1716-1736. Source: Genealogies and Schools of Japanese Swordsmiths: Mit Deutscher Einleitung http://books.google.com/books?id=cH-8BYsgGgIC&pg=PA111&dq=tegarayama+ujishige&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xc0PT4eSHOn40gHqsdm5Aw&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=tegarayama%20ujishige&f=false

 

So THAT geneology chart shows "Ujishige 3" as the FATHER of both younger Ujishiges...and "Ujishige 4" (supposedly the eldest son) as working around 1789-1801...so it looks like HE was the older brother of Masashige, no? According to that geneology chart?

 

So any thoughts? Who was the real 3rd gen Ujishige? Early 1700s smith and the father of Masashige and Ujishige 4?? Or late 1700s/early 1800s smith and the older BROTHER of Masashige who worked around the same time?

 

Or am I missing something?

 

Thanks!

Dave

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No help from me with any information, I am afraid, but I was amazed at the transformation after the polish...no wonder you are pleased, the blade looks amazing now! Incredible to think what lies beneath the surface of such an apparently rusty ruin...

 

Amazing and interesting story to go with it as well,

 

regards, Mark

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No help from me with any information, I am afraid, but I was amazed at the transformation after the polish...no wonder you are pleased, the blade looks amazing now! Incredible to think what lies beneath the surface of such an apparently rusty ruin...

 

Amazing and interesting story to go with it as well,

 

regards, Mark

 

Thanks for the comments mark.

 

I am interested to learn what kind of hada it has. Nashiji or konuka? And what implications the type has.

 

IMG_1606.jpg

 

Any other opinions / observations welcome.

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Congrats, I think it came out well. You would need to research the smith to see how it fits in. I'm inclined towards a bit of nashiji, although the hada isn't prominent. Not konuka though.

It's a good example of why people shouldn't write off swords, and there are no such things as "project blades" for beginners to "practice polishing" on.... these can be saved and evenb pitting can often be removed. Do not write off blades unless an expert tells you to. :)

Enjoy, it's a vast improvement.

 

Brian

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