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What to look for in 4 - 500,000 yen nihonto?


raygun

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Guest Kendoman

Ed,

 

Read my orginal post again to Raygun.

 

1. I bought the mentioned blade from Choshuya. I mentioned the Masahiro as a potential price guide for Raygun. You didn't realise I bought the blade.

2. I don't know what you are talking about when you refer to a Mashiro at $19,000 because you assumed I was referring to the Choshuya cat. And I suppose you know their entire stock as well from the 1st floor to the 3rd?

 

3. If I 'misunderstood' you, then why did you lecture me on recaculating my yen? I work and live in Tokyo and visit that shop every week, so I think its a bit 'defensive' to open your missive when you jumped into this thread without reading accurately my post, especially when I receive my salary in, wait for it, in yen!

 

Good Day

 

JS

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Thanks for reponding to my questions. I appreciate it.

 

I have Kanzan Sato's book on the way to me as we speak. I can see that this is going to be a long and wonderful journey.

 

cheers

 

Hello Andrew,

 

From the 5 main traditions and many time periods to choose from, which tradition(s), time period(s), school(s), smith(s) catch your fancy at this point?

Why?

 

 

Franco

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Guest Kendoman

Raygun,

 

To avoid confusion, the Masahiro that Ed reffered to was this one:

 

https://www.choshuya.co.jp/0000/masahiro/masahiro.htm

 

The above, contrary to Ed's misreading of the Japanese, was not the 2nd Generation, it states its by the 1st Generation.

 

The Masahiro wakizashi I was referring to was an ordinary one WITHOUT HORIMONO which was a walk in purchase from their common stock.

 

So, yes, call up Imazu san or Fukami san and have a word with them. Don't listen to Ed. Imazu speaks good English.

 

Happy Hunting

 

JS

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I do not want this turning into an argument folks. First and only warning. :evil:

This silly debate comes from a misunderstanding, and should be simply explained, and then moved on from.

It was very easy to mistake the sword in question as the one on the website..given that the cheaper one was not on their site, and it was not mentioned at first that it was a walk in purchase, and already sold. The topic was swords around $4000-5000, and Ed was correct in pointing out that at that price level, his sword was a good deal.

I would also have been confused if Choshuya was showing one at $19000, and we were speaking about one at around $5000...it is fair to question that. Easily cleared up with a simple clarification.

The point is clearly made that there are some nice swords in that price range..whether from well respected dealers like Choshuya in Japan...or well respected dealers in the USA like Ed.

That ends the conversation. Please keep this topic on track, and keep any further controversy via pm please.

 

Brian

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Some facts:

 

1. Hizen Masahiro Shodai = 5.5 million yen, Jo-saku.

 

2. Hizen Masahiro Nidai = 5 million yen, Jo-saku.

 

They are valued within 10% of each other. Choshuya is not a "cheap" dealer, offering usually very high quality and reliable goods at standard market prices. Their shop is in a very expensive area, and the production values of their marketing literature online and offline are all top notch. They're not in the business to give their swords away.

 

To calculate the reference price of a wakizashi, assuming it is top quality, take 30% of the yen price. In this case we get 1.65 million yen. Horimono increase the price from here I seem to recall by about 20%. We get then roughly 2 million yen. The second hole in the nakago then detracts slightly from the price. As the horimono may be excessively rare there may be an extra bonus for this Shodai wakizashi.

 

But you can see that they are following the model for pricing.

 

In the case of the Nidai, without any adornments or problems, the fair price is going to come to 1.5 million yen, around $12,000. A far cry from $4,000.

 

More facts:

 

Polish of a 50cm wakizashi by a top ranked polisher will cost 200,000 yen.

 

Habaki: 60,000 yen.

 

Shirasaya: 65,000 yen.

 

Shinsa fee to Tokubetsu Hozon: 78,000 yen.

 

Total: 403,000 yen.

 

Apparently then according to the mysterious John Sarvent, Choshuya priced out a 5 million yen Jo-saku smith 300 year old work from one of the most highly rated Shinto schools for 97,000 yen plus the cost of materials, one that can be fairly sold by Japanese pricing standards at 1.5 million yen.

 

I'll leave this with "fair and balanced, I report, you decide" heh :-).

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After reading Darcy's post on pricing I wanted to let the list know that I have wakizashi for sale by both the Shodia Masahiro and the Nidai Masahiro. SInce I have collected that family for many years I actually have a good assortment or hamon to choose from. Most are papered. There is a shinsa coming up inb Chicago and Mineapolis, I will take to shinsa any Masahiro bought and pay for the shinsa. If the blade does not pass I will refund in full the price paid. Priced in U.S. funds from $5k and up.

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Brian,

No problem, there will be no argument. I won't be drawn into one.

 

My only concern was that the originator of the post, "Raygun" was not mislead or misinformed.

 

I am man enough to admit a possible mistake on my part. I may have jumped to the conclusion that the "Masahiro" of which he spoke was the one on the Choshuya web site. However, I did not misread it (It's in English). Nonetheless, I will never believe you will buy a sword of that caliber for $4000 USD.

 

Darcy's post only confirms what I already knew, that you are not going to buy a full polish, no flaws, tokubetsu papered 1st or 2nd generation Hizen Masahiro for $4000 USD.

 

Raygun: I apologize to you for your thread turning into free for all.

 

BTW: The Yoshimichi is sold. ;)

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Just to clarify what I said above, I was speaking about a high end Japanese dealer... in the case of private sales, anything can happen as people will sell for a loss when they want to or need to sell, or if they found it their cost structure may allow for better pricing.

 

Even so, at $4,000 that is just the price of polish, papers, habaki, and shirasaya. Sword comes free.

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Personally, I think you are being misled a bit but it has been alluded to, don't get stuck in the name game. buy a sword which you like! If you aren't sure what attributes you are attracted to yet, then study more and handle some blades or if none available at least cruise sites/buy books that give you an idea of attributes are out there. In fact, I would much rather have a mumei blade that has all the attributes I like then a big name smith that doesn't have everything I want. There can be a discount on mumei blades or should I say you can get more sometimes with a mumei. And to boot, plenty of mumei have gone Juyo.

 

Obviously you will have to make comprimises to your perfect blade, until winnning the lottery kicks in, but I personally want a sword that has as much of what I like in it as possible. I want a great hada with a subtle nioi based hamon but that subtlety actually contains lots of activities. Although the more I see ichimonji type hamon, I do enjoy them. Still I find it most interesting that a ko midare hamon or a hamon mainly based on suguha can actually have a lot going on and spending the time finding all that activity is part of the fun. One of the other things I love is to take my kashu kagemitsu circa 1390 and hold in the sunlight on a sunny day. The nie in the hada comes alive. I have only seen a few mihara blades, but I am enjoying them more and more. While a really good rai blade may not be in my range, a good mihara blade might come close plus I get the hamon I like more. Lets just say, I have a different approach to buying a sword but my finanaces are a very limiting factor as well. I don't even consider the name. Good luck with it all.

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As Ken said...

Study as much as you can, so that what you like IS quality, and you know how to recongise it. Then buy what YOU like. Everyone has different tastes, and although we can all appreciate fine Nihonto..different things appeal to different people Some love a subtle suguha..others love a hamon that looks like burning oil on the waves.

The more you study..the more you will lean towards different traits.

 

Regards,

Brian

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This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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