Help please?

[bone]

And it's here. I had to try different lights and such but I can see the utsuri if I hold th blade right. It was really exciting to see it and then compare with online references and recognize what I was looking at. Thanks for pointing me in that direction, Mark and Reinhard. Getting it to show in photos has so far been fruitless though, sorry. I'll keep trying.

The nakago is polished smooth! Ack! At the top there is some pitting that's fairly deep and certainly the black inside the pits is very dark in color.

I'll keep working on pics and finding out what I can.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Greetings,

 

Huh, utsuri, sure looks like an utsuri pattern, but must say that the longer I look at these images the less convinced I'm becoming that this is a genuine "good" type of "utsuri" based upon the serious lack of control in the hada nie (imo), along with the disparity between the activity in the hamon and this hada/utsuri, something seems off here, imho. Could be the current state of polish, could be that I'm completely wrong, but I would certainly be interested in learning from what a shinsa team had to say about this "utsuri".

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

From what i see, i don't think it's an utsuri, the size of the nie seems too large, i would go to a bad quality of steel.

[Mark Green]

Hi Gang,

At first I was thinking Tobi-yaki. And that could still be the case. That is why I was wanting some better pics. You would think, if it is utsuri, the hamon would be some big choji or something like that. But, you never know.

I don't think it is a problem with the steel. it seems very uniform, in it's way. A bit disconnected though. But that could be due to the times it has been polished.

Does utsuri always carry clear through the jacket steel???? Or can it be polished away?

Steven, Now that you have the sword in hand, can you follow the pattern all the way down the blade? Or mostly?

Very interesting sword, have fun with it. Keep working on some pics.

Mark G

[nagamaki - Franco]

Good afternoon,

 

At first I was thinking Tobi-yaki. And that could still be the case.

You would think, if it is utsuri, the hamon would be some big choji or something like that.

Does utsuri always carry clear through the jacket steel???? Or can it be polished away?

 

1) spots of tobi-yaki should have better defined borders of separation.

2) Choji utsuri will be found with choji hamons. Full midare utsuri can appear with sugu/notare/midare based hamons.

3) good question, utsuri can fade away as the sword is polished down. Also, Yamanaka (Newsletters Revised), describes tsukare utsuri which appears on tired swords in correlation to the core steel of certain schools. On a side note, both these facts add to the reasoning not to allow amateur polishers to place their polishing stones on nihonto!

 

I had to try different lights and such but I can see the utsuri if I hold th blade right.

 

Oddly enough, your statement here strikes a positive cord that it just might be some kind of utsuri, as utsuri is often quite evasive, difficult to spot. It does take just the right lighting combined with the correct angle to expose it sometimes, especially with a less than optimum polish.

[bone]

Hey all.

Pretty much all I can contribute is some observations. I'll take it to work where some better photography is available next week. The hamon is easily seen in the pictures. Just above that is a darker line that the utusri only touches in a couple of places.

 

It's visible all the way along the blade, Mark, though much easier to see on one side. There seems to be a fairly regular pattern to it that doesn't mirror the hamon but as the hamon moves up and down the depth of the utsuri follows the darker line above it.

Once again depending on the lighting, it looks like a grey "wave", for lack of a better term, originating just above the hamon or soft blue droplets hanging from the shinogi down toward the hamon.

From the mune to the ha is under 3cm is that within the norm?

I don't know whether any of this clears anything up, and bad or good I just want to discover what I have.

 

Thank all of you so much.

 

Extra thanks to Mark!

[nagamaki - Franco]

Once again depending on the lighting, it looks like a grey "wave", for lack of a better term

 

Hello Steven,

 

When you see this "utsuri" are you able to describe its reflective properties ("looks like ..?..."), as grey wave makes it sound flat (which it might be)? Thanks.

[bone]

The space between the hamon and shinogi. In the right light most of the area is a flat grey not very reflective. It's general shape would be kind of like a sine wave and in between each "wave" is an area that's more reflective. The lighter areas are just slightly less reflective than the hamon. I'm going to try and describe it from one angle only. Hmmm, if you imagine looking down with the sun at a low angle in the sky it looks kind of like a series of rolling hills with the peaks in light and the valleys in shadow. Does that make any sense?

 

Talk about a picture being worth a thousand words...

[reinhard]

Sorry if I confused you reinhard.

 

It takes another calibre to confuse me, but maybe you confused Joe and the many people watching from outside.

 

reinhard

[reinhard]

Just to get you an idea:

 

This is Ichimonji SUKEYOSHI

 

reinhard

[reinhard]

Just one more thing: Always start with the blade, never with its mei, unless there's no other way.

 

reinhard

[Mark Green]

Gee, Thanks Reinhard, I have a calibre. "Is that kinda like a way"

Sorry if I confused anyone. I just didn't want to get Steve all worked up before we could see some new pics.

 

I think you have nailed it Reinhard! It was signed 'Ichi', and someone added a few strokes to it to make it a Sa.

That's a cool pic btw.

 

Does it look like a non pro has polished this? It doesn't look like it's been polished for quite some time to me?

 

Steve, From all that you have qbserved, I think it is looking good.

 

Here is a great link to look at some old 'organic' looking swords. http://www.jp-sword.com/files/meito/meito.html

Mark G

[bone]

Woot! That pic nails it Reinhard. That's exactly what I'm seeing. And your advice on following the blade and not the signature is well taken.

 

Mark! I can't think you enough for jumping in on this thread. And I'll take those beers with relish! And preferably a hot-dog under the relish... :D

 

So... any guesses on age? Or do you see anything else that would help describe it?

 

Anyhow it's late and those beers are making me sleepy. Thanks again all!

[nagamaki - Franco]

In the right light most of the area is a flat grey not very reflective. It's general shape would be kind of like a sine wave and in between each "wave" is an area that's more reflective. The lighter areas are just slightly less reflective than the hamon.

 

Hello,

 

Again, what you're describing might well be utsuri. It's safe to say that this sword certainly deserves to be evaluated by a good polisher at the very least, in order to become correctly informed regarding exactly what the story is about all this activity.

[reinhard]

It's safe to say that this sword certainly deserves to be evaluated by a good polisher at the very least, in order to become correctly informed

 

I subscribe to this. The "SA"-mei on the sashi omote (!) is of lesser or no importance here, but the blade might be worthwile. Have it checked by a reliable pro.

 

reinhard

[bone]

Thanks guys. I fully intend to have it examined by a pro. I'm hunting for someone now that I can send it to. No sense in sending it to shinsa yet, since I first want to make sure about the signature one way or the other. Any referrals would be greatly appreciated! Exciting times!

[bone]

Yes it's still gimei but I may have some more info. A friend believes it to be Soshu, Muromachi and instead of utsuri how about hitatsura? I've never seen a a thread nor can I find any info on the board about hitatsura. I'm told Bob could help as he's the Soshu expert but what do you guys think?

[Jean]

Steve,

 

http://www.nihontoantiques.com/gallery.htm

 

Go to Koto, (Soshu) Tsunahiro and you will see hitatsura.

[bone]

Ah! Thank you very much Jean.

 

Hmmm, I still think it's utsuri with some spots of tobi-yaki. I'll check it under a loop when I get it back. As for photography I even spent money on a pro photographer and even he couldn't get it to show. I really need to send it to a pro and have it evaluated. It'd be worth a couple hundred dollars to have it evaluated by someone who really knows there stuff. Though the member I sent it to is very knowledgeable even he suggested I send it to be evaluated. sigh I just don't know how to proceed. No more shinsa's this year, right?