Help please?

[bone]

I've been told this translates to Sa. But I won't be sure until I hear it here.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e382/ ... a/Sa13.jpg

Thanks!

 

Steven B

[outlier48]

Hi Steven,

 

左 can be pronounced SA, SHA or hidari and translates literally as "left". There are several smiths who reportedly used this name. At least one reportedly did use this single kanji as his mei. There is probably much more info available from other members of this board. Hopefully some of them will "chime in" on this and enlighten us both. BTW, do you have any more photos or a description of the key characteristics? What is your opinion of era, school, smith based on the sword's characteristics?

 

Charlie

[bone]

http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e382/boneami/Sa/

I'm trying to share the whole album. I don't yet have the sword in hand and since my reference library consists of one book, I mostly wade through the internet trying to figure it all out. Slow going. From the index I've found two smiths under that name. If it's one of them it would be the Muromachi period but I haven't found any images of one of those smiths swords for comparison yet. I'll be staying up late and getting eye strain for a while. Woot! I'm surprised at how much I'm enjoying all this.

 

Steven B

[bone]

*dope smacks self* This should help. Can anyone tell me what the origami says?

 

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e382/ ... a/Sa36.jpg

[Grey Doffin]

That isn't origami; it is the sword's registration paper from the Japanese gov't. It tells you only that it is a sword and that it has been registered; it says nothing about quality, correctness of mei, age, condition, etc.

Grey

[bone]

Ah! Thanks Grey.

[Grey Doffin]

Steven,

While it is possible that this is signed by one of the other smiths who used Sa as a name (11 total in Hawley's), because the mei is a bit crudely cut I'm guessing that this is a gimei of O-Sa, one of Masamune's 10 students and a very important smith. Pity the nakago has been so brutally cleaned.

Grey

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

because the mei is a bit crudely cut I'm guessing that this is a gimei of O-Sa

 

No need to check the mei, all extent works of o-Sa are tanto excepted one tachi (which was owned by Tokugawa Ieyasu)

[bone]

Thank you! So there's no way it's O-Sa but it may yet be one of the 11 Sa's. Grey, can you tell me what about it makes you suspect gimei? Assuming the signature is forged, do the pictures of the blade look "real?"

 

Thanks again!

 

Steven B

[bone]

Thanks Jacques! That saved me some fruitless searching. Oh! And if anyone has any links to Sa meis I'd really appreciate it. Unfortunately you can't search this forum for a two letter word. Too bad. It's a great way to specific links.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Steven,

The mei looks wrong. Tentative, weakly cut, clumsy, just wrong. Grab a book of oshigata and look closely at every mei in the book. Then look at the mei on this sword. Maybe you'll see what I see.

And that lower horizontal stroke: why is it cut twice?

When we tell newbies to buy books and study before buying blades this is what we're getting at. After looking at thousands of real signatures the fake ones stand out.

So the reason I think this is a gimei of O-Sa, rather than a real signature of one of the other smiths who signed Sa, is because it looks wrong. It doesn't look like someone's signature; it looks like a crude attempt to copy one.

Grey

[bone]

Thank you Grey. Very dissapointing.

[cisco-san]

Steven B,

 

it does not matter if the mei is wrong or not. You should not buy a Nihonto just because it is signed with the name of a famous smith.

If YOU like the blade everything is o.k. There are many well made swords with Gimei.

 

cheers

[sanjuro]

Klaus.

 

That depends on whether you buy swords or signatures doesn't it? There are collectors out there that will buy a sword in any condition just as long as it has a genuine auspicious signature.

 

Long live Ubu Mumei.......... You cant fake an ubu mumei blade, (actually you can, but it's rather pointless), it's ubu and mumei regardless of who made it. :D

[bone]

I didn't buy it for the signature, thank goodness. And I'm not doing this to make money. I enjoy old, beautiful things. My only concern now is that the blade itself is a modern copy. If it's old then it's all good! It looks good to me but then again... *points to previous posts*

Just from looking at the blade guys, does it look ok?

 

And thanks!

 

Steven B

[SwordGuyJoe]

Well if that's your concern, then rest easy - this is not a modern reproduction. The blade to me looks okay - not too tired, but it's getting sleepy (i.e. I wouldn't polish the thing again). The biggest trouble with the blade that I see isn't the gimei signature its the clean job someone did on the nakago. Stripped away all of the patina and makes it difficult (for someone like me to date), but I'd guess Shinto, maybe shinshinto, but remaining rust on nakago looks older than that.

[bone]

Wow Joe, thanks. That really takes a load off. I don't know why someone feels the urge to clean something that's very old. I remember an antiques roadshow where a man had a 50k high-boy. Of course if he hadn't refinished it... 500k. I have a little mayan cup that someone diligently and thoroughly cleaned. What lilttle value it did have is now completely gone. Anyway I'm really looking forward to researching this one!

 

One last question, do people name their swords?

[Jamie]

Steven,

A lot of the old famous swords are named.

Your sword does not look to be a modern reproduction to me either.

It stinks that someone removed the nakago patina, but it happens.

It has lots of activity and I bet you can learn a lot from it.

[bone]

Thanks! A couple of other people have told me pretty much the same thing. It'll be a fun research project! EVERYONE has remarked on the nakago. *shaking of head* Seriously what do they think they're gonna find under the rust??

I'm fighting the urge to name mine. They're all so different.

 

And any of you that want to send me some pics and tell me about your sword, I'd love to hear it. I have an easier time understanding when there are images and descriptions in the same place.

 

I really appreciate it guys!

 

Steven B

[SwordGuyJoe]

Much like the road to hell, cleaning a nakago is an act with good intention. I think they think that, I'll clean is and make it look fresh and new. Unfortunately, by doing so, the effectively ruin the value of the blade.

[bone]

This is just a shot in the dark but what if they "polished" it to remove the real mei? It's common practice by people trying to change mint marks on US coins. There is a very shallow line coming down on the right side from the highest horizontal slash, there's the wide spot in the long vertical stroke and it would go a long way to explaining the extra horizontal stroke at the bottom that Grey talked about. Is there any evidence this has been done before?

[Mark Green]

HI Steve,

Interesting looking sword.

There were more like dozens of guys that signed Sa. It was a very big school.

Your sword has a nice organic look to it. Some spots of nice looking hada.

 

I wonder what is going on with these dark areas in the ji. Surly not utsuri.

Is it just dark spots in the steel?

When you get your sword, take some good close shots I would love to see what is going on here.

 

Rest assured that it is a old sword.

 

Mark G

[bone]

Hey thanks Mark! As soon as it arrives I'll be taking lots of close-ups. I want to thank everyone who has assured me here and in PM's that it is definately old. Woot! Good times.

:D

[bone]

Ack! It's here but sitting in the post office. Hopefully they'll be open as usual but with the fourth this weekend... I'm like a kid on christmas eve! Gonna be a long 15 hours that's for sure.

[Jamie]

Bone-

I know how you feel. I have a beautiful Old Tanto that will be here next week, and I'll be out of town when it arrives. I'll have to wait out the duration of the week.

 

I hope your post office is open and you can pick it up.

[bone]

Brutal! If you're worried you could always ship it to me... I'd take good care of it for you. :D

 

When it comes PM me some pics and the description. I love that stuff!

 

They should really make a show-off thread so we wouldn't have to think up reasons to ask questions in the other threads. Bet it'd be the most popular on the site.

[Jamie]

Absolutely

[reinhard]

Your sword has a nice organic look to it.

 

Could you explain on this, please?

 

Surly not utsuri.

 

Telling from the pictures, it looks like perfect utsuri to me. What makes you think so?

 

reinhard

[Mark Green]

Your sword has a nice organic look to it.

 

Could you explain on this

 

Surly not utsuri.

 

Telling from the pictures, it looks like perfect utsuri to me. What makes you think so?

 

reinhard

 

All the other swords I have ever seen signed Sa, had this same look. Mind you, it has not been that many. By 'organic look'. I'm just using non Nihonto terms that I have formed in my own mind. Very natural looking, with all kinds of stuff going on. Sorry if I confused you reinhard.

 

 

From the pics, it sure looks like utsuri to me too. I was joking, geeze :? Did anyone else miss the joke?

Mark G

[bone]

*chuckle* I got it Mark. When I read that I wanted to celebrate! I think Organic is a great way to describe the grain of the metal. In many ways it resembles fine grain on wood.