What do you think?

[estcrh]

I have seen several different items in this style being sold as antiques recently, I have my doubts...any comments? http://cgi.ebay.com/2772-J-P-Samurai-An ... 1997wt_932

[watsonmil]

Dear Eric,

The basic jitte appears to be quite alright. It may well have had the sleeve with the rather poorly SOLDERED on dragons added at a later date. Note in pictiure # 10 how the sleeve metal looks crushed and forced against the iron fork ( kuchi ). Not the type of work expected in the Edo or Meiji period for genuine craftsmanship. Note also the dragon on the butt end being simply wrapped around and soldered into place loosely. Again not my opinion of the workmanship one would expect. It may be all quite old, ... but it looks like additions were made after it's original form. Just my view ..... Ron Watson

[estcrh]

Dear Eric,

The basic jitte appears to be quite alright. It may well have had the sleeve with the rather poorly SOLDERED on dragons added at a later date. Note in pictiure # 10 how the sleeve metal looks crushed and forced against the iron fork ( kuchi ). Not the type of work expected in the Edo or Meiji period for genuine craftsmanship. Note also the dragon on the butt end being simply wrapped around and soldered into place loosely. Again not my opinion of the workmanship one would expect. It may be all quite old, ... but it looks like additions were made after it's original form. Just my view ..... Ron Watson

I did not think of an older jutte with new pieces added...the dragons etc do not appear to have any wear at all and the workmanship is not of the level you expect to see. I saw a series of riding crops that were sold recently with the same look and motif and no wear..you would not expect to see 3 such unusual items being sold at one time and they sold for a lot of money..sort of like the 2 little hand cannons I posted in the Edo period section.

[watsonmil]

Dear Eric,

I seem to be taking on the role of spoiler, .... BUT never-the-less I DO NOT like what I'm seeing. When I started out collecting Japanese works many years ago, the fakes and/or copies were EASY to spot. The first of the fake Chinese tsuba were so terrible they were laughable. The Netsuke for instance were so poorly executed that my 8 year old son at the time went with me to a big time Doctor's home to look at his collection, ... and he picked out the fakes one after another to the astonishment of the good Doctor. I lost this son to a very rare type of cancer. He was my protege, .... God would he have been something .... having such an eye at such an age. Just one of the bones I have to pick with the Almighty should there actually be one which the way the world is going I'm beginning to question !

... Ron Watson

[sanjuro]

A question that arises in my mind, is that perhaps we are seeing a drift or a trend currently toward these items that are sometimes a little suspicious, even from dealers who in the past have had fairly reliable items. Swords of course, but also Tosogu, yanone/yajiri, Katchu etc all seem to be effected, and we have many clever reproductions also to contend with. It is an alarming trend which of course is not new, but certainly seems to be more prolific right across the board. Even genuine but basic items seem to be getting a 'face lift' to make them more attractive to the collector, or sometimes being 'remanufactured' out of a disparity of antique pieces.

I am by no means an ebay watcher, in fact something of the opposite. Auctions in the main, even those by reputable auction houses, dont really interest me to the point that I religiously keep track of them. Recently however, on the occasions I have had cause to check auctions that may have had items that would interest me, I have noticed that there seems to be an increasing number of these suspect items scattered about. Perhaps it is a sign of the times, or even a reflection of the increasing rarity of higher quality items being available.

[estcrh]

A question that arises in my mind, is that perhaps we are seeing a drift or a trend currently toward these items that are sometimes a little suspicious, even from dealers who in the past have had fairly reliable items. Swords of course, but also Tosogu, yanone/yajiri, Katchu etc all seem to be effected, and we have many clever reproductions also to contend with. It is an alarming trend which of course is not new, but certainly seems to be more prolific right across the board. Even genuine but basic items seem to be getting a 'face lift' to make them more attractive to the collector, or sometimes being 'remanufactured' out of a disparity of antique pieces.

I am by no means an ebay watcher, in fact something of the opposite. Auctions in the main, even those by reputable auction houses, dont really interest me to the point that I religiously keep track of them. Recently however, on the occasions I have had cause to check auctions that may have had items that would interest me, I have noticed that there seems to be an increasing number of these suspect items scattered about. Perhaps it is a sign of the times, or even a reflection of the increasing rarity of higher quality items being available.

Keith, you make a good point, there was a time when you could trust certain dealers to weed out the suspect items and paying a higher price for a vetted item was worth the money but I recently have seen several dealers who previously seemed to be able to sell authentic items carry an item or 2 which was very suspect to me and other people as we have seen here..it is not a good trend at all...the question is..are the dealers being fooled or have they just given in to the times?

[estcrh]

here are a couple of examples..a fire starter kit..a leather pouch with a place to put a flint and an iron striker attached for starting fires..it looks real but I just saw 2 other ones for sale within a few days each from a different person.....whats the chance of that?..they all look different and could fool you easily>>> http://page11.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/n90004768 and I just saw an old looking Japanese pocket knife for sale on yahoo Japan>> http://page2.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/b110253760 now I see 2 others for sale from someone else, they could fool you also>>> http://page13.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/r67517753 http://page13.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/r67517625 if you saw these items by them selves they could pass, but when you see them together you can compare and see how much alike they are constructed yet they are all completely different on the surface...whats the chance of 3 items of this type being sold in the same week and not being replicas?

[sanjuro]

Well, it seems to me that someone with access to the genuine article, can copy that article in all its detail and stress quite accurately, even to the point of adding variations so that curios, household and personal articles such as pocket knives firestarters etc would be less likely to be suspected as forgeries than would articles of fine art. If one then spreads those copies around the dealers and auction houses as originals, there would be money to be made. Sadly, the practice is and has been common in the field of antiques, and originates from places where the labour costs of producing such articles is minimal. Where money is to be made then the unscrupulous are very inventive.

One cant help but be skeptical.

[IanB]

All, I too saw the so-called 'riding-whip' and wondered about the practicalities of beating a horse with an iron bar. Not only that, but a whip in which the end had been rather crudely flattened into a spatulate shape that would have severely damaged the animal if it had been hit by the edge rather than the flat. Obviously someone is knocking these items out - both the whips and jitte having a distinctive family look about them.

But, and this is where you surprise me gents, thus it has ever been. As soon as the value of the originals exceeds the cost of reproduction, along comes the fakers and the market is salted with the bad amongst the good. Think about all those ravishing Meiji period tanto with their writhing silver dragon koshirae and superlative lacquered scabbards. Total fakes made to make money when the artists had been thrown on the scrap-heap. Same with the armour makers in Meiji times. Do-maru, o-yoroi and haramaki by the hundreds, admittedly often incorporating old pieces, but 'every one from a daimyo household that had fallen on hard times esteemed foreign tourist'. It was no different in Europe during the 'gothic revival'. Ateliers like Spitzer's in Paris and many more in Germany churned out armours, wheel lock pistols and swords, every one of which 'had been discovered in remote Bohemian castle'. Best of the lot was Pratt in London whose supplier, Grimshaw' made hundreds of great helms, none of which are even remotely wearable, yet which fooled the 'experts' of the day. In the words of the old song - It's the same the whole world over ...'

Ian Bottomley

[estcrh]

All, I too saw the so-called 'riding-whip' and wondered about the practicalities of beating a horse with an iron bar. Not only that, but a whip in which the end had been rather crudely flattened into a spatulate shape that would have severely damaged the animal if it had been hit by the edge rather than the flat. Obviously someone is knocking these items out - both the whips and jitte having a distinctive family look about them.

But, and this is where you surprise me gents, thus it has ever been. As soon as the value of the originals exceeds the cost of reproduction, along comes the fakers and the market is salted with the bad amongst the good. Think about all those ravishing Meiji period tanto with their writhing silver dragon koshirae and superlative lacquered scabbards. Total fakes made to make money when the artists had been thrown on the scrap-heap. Same with the armour makers in Meiji times. Do-maru, o-yoroi and haramaki by the hundreds, admittedly often incorporating old pieces, but 'every one from a daimyo household that had fallen on hard times esteemed foreign tourist'. It was no different in Europe during the 'gothic revival'. Ateliers like Spitzer's in Paris and many more in Germany churned out armours, wheel lock pistols and swords, every one of which 'had been discovered in remote Bohemian castle'. Best of the lot was Pratt in London whose supplier, Grimshaw' made hundreds of great helms, none of which are even remotely wearable, yet which fooled the 'experts' of the day. In the words of the old song - It's the same the whole world over ...'

Ian Bottomley

Ian, I saw those whips being sold on yahoo Japan and a few days later at least 2 were re-sold on Ebay for rather high prices..obvious fakes and not even replicas as I do not think these iron whips were ever used in the past, but that did not stop people from buying them and passing them along to someone else...but its the work that someone is putting into rather mundane low cost items that surprises me, now each one is different looking and not exact copies of each other..a lot of work and thought for something that will not sell for a lot of money.

[estcrh]

Another fake or replica...there are real items that look like this>> http://daimyoubugu2.web.infoseek.co.jp/ ... G_7865.JPG

[watsonmil]

Dear Eric,

A huge amount of replica and fake material is coming out of China. At an average factory hourly wage of 75 cents US, ..

it does not take a PHD in economics to figure that someone with a little talent working as a " cottage industry " can turn out this stuff in an array of slightly different styles. One cannot blame the labourer whether he lives in Canton or Timbuktu ( Tombouctou ). The real culprits here are the people ( dealers ) ordering this stuff and the venues like eBay and the Japanese auction sites willing to handle it. The artifacts of the samurai are not the only target of fakers and dealers. Here in Canada there was a fellow producing the very rare " Indian Trade Silver " of the Fur Trade era. He not only was faking ( making ) the items, but wrote a bloody book on the subject which was taken as gospel by some of the big auction houses, ... who in turn sold some of this stuff as genuine. I could go on with examples of fakes in the American Civil War artifacts. The sad part of all this is that once these items are in circulation, ... it decreases the value of the genuine. Once collectors lose faith by being burnt, .... there are that many fewer to carry on and study and purchase from those of us who are by necessity of our mortality wanting to sooner or later sell. Unlike ... P. T. Barnum, ... I believe that there are only so many fools in the world and since most of these have found their niche in Government, ... we may soon see an end to collecting as we once knew it.

... Ron Watson

[Bugyotsuji]

Yes, the Jutte looks much the same as most of these Jutte doing the rounds, new, but 'aged' just enough to fool 85% of the people.

[outlier48]

Dear Eric,

A huge amount of replica and fake material is coming out of China. At an average factory hourly wage of 75 cents US, ..

it does not take a PHD in economics to figure that someone with a little talent working as a " cottage industry " can turn out this stuff in an array of slightly different styles. One cannot blame the labourer whether he lives in Canton or Timbuktu ( Tombouctou ). The real culprits here are the people ( dealers ) ordering this stuff and the venues like eBay and the Japanese auction sites willing to handle it. The artifacts of the samurai are not the only target of fakers and dealers. Here in Canada there was a fellow producing the very rare " Indian Trade Silver " of the Fur Trade era. He not only was faking ( making ) the items, but wrote a bloody book on the subject which was taken as gospel by some of the big auction houses, ... who in turn sold some of this stuff as genuine. I could go on with examples of fakes in the American Civil War artifacts. The sad part of all this is that once these items are in circulation, ... it decreases the value of the genuine. Once collectors lose faith by being burnt, .... there are that many fewer to carry on and study and purchase from those of us who are by necessity of our mortality wanting to sooner or later sell. Unlike ... P. T. Barnum, ... I believe that there are only so many fools in the world and since most of these have found their niche in Government, ... we may soon see an end to collecting as we once knew it.

... Ron Watson

 

This, plus the info in the FAQ section of this board, is why, as a newbie, I don't even bother looking at items on ebay. I may miss out on a rare find (doubt I would be the one to corner a "deal" on ebay) but I would rather deal with members of this board or of a bona fide sword club or with those internet sellers who are well known on this board. My fervent hope is that all those new to nihonto will read the FAQ section, buy books, go to meetings and shows, study quality blades "in hand" with a mentor and then make well informed purchases. This sound advice has been offered many times by very experienced members here. Wishful thinking that all newbies would follow it?

 

Charlie Brashear

[sanjuro]

Charlie.

 

I love your faith in the native common sense of newbies! :D It is of course largely myth, and as we see so often,(too often), first they buy on ebay and then they join this board to find out what they have bought. SIGH........

 

However, to the point of this.... The nature of collecting is surely bound to change in the light of the proliferation of unreliable items and unmitigated faking and profiteering on the part of some dealers. I envision that change to drive communities such as the NMB closer together, closing ranks as it were against an increasingly hostile supply environment.

The great value of places such as this is that even the experienced collector can ask for guidance/clarification from his fellows without fear of bias or vested interest. Thus, as a group, the collectors and students of nihonto become stronger and better informed. Some dealers who offer only reliable items will of course benefit from this and be patronised whilst other less reliable or less scrupulous dealers will be left on the outer.

This bodes ill for the newbie in that alone and uninformed, the newbie is the natural prey of dubious dealers and sellers. This is so now, and will be moreso in the future.

To quote a line from 'The Magnificent Seven', "If he did not want them shorn, God would not have made them sheep!" Is this the new catch cry for the up and coming dealers who have more greed than conscience?

[IanB]

Keith, There is another aspect to these fakes. They do in fact fulfill the role of expanding the available supply of material for people to buy. Imagine that everything was genuine, the available material has then to be divided between those who wish to own it. Those with money can buy the best, as always, those with shallower pockets the less good items.Some or many of these buyers will do so because it is fashionable, quirky, for decor or simply to boost their image ( think of the 'I'm heavily into martial arts ... ' chat up line with regard to Nihon to). Thus the quantity available to those who really appreciate, love and study the material is limited. Now introduce a lot of fakes. Those who simply acquire for some of the reasons quoted, don't in general want to pay too much and in will tend to buy the fakes. As long as they don't know, they are quite happy and the objects are perfectly good enough to fulfill the purpose for which they are being bought. This takes the pressure of the real material and effectively increases the supply to the real lover of the genre.

As an example, during the 19th century many aristocrats and wealthy landowners across Europe regretted flogging off their ancestral armour during the 'Age of enlightenment'. As a result firms such as Schmidt of Munich set up a large company to make and supply everything from armours, shields, staff weapons, tents and much besides. Some of the material was real, or partially so, but the bulk was made in-house. A typical example was an industrial magnate in the UK who acquired a 'Baronial Hall', a coat-of-arms and started buying armour and other evidence of his supposed ancestry. There is a delicious photo of his armoury that has a shelf running around the walls on which rested a long line of helms and helmets - every one (about 40 - 50) a total and obvious fake. The point is, he didn't know and probably didn't really care, they fulfilled the role he had bought them for.

Ian Bottomley

[estcrh]

Keith, There is another aspect to these fakes. They do in fact fulfill the role of expanding the available supply of material for people to buy. Imagine that everything was genuine, the available material has then to be divided between those who wish to own it. Those with money can buy the best, as always, those with shallower pockets the less good items.Some or many of these buyers will do so because it is fashionable, quirky, for decor or simply to boost their image ( think of the 'I'm heavily into martial arts ... ' chat up line with regard to Nihon to). Thus the quantity available to those who really appreciate, love and study the material is limited. Now introduce a lot of fakes. Those who simply acquire for some of the reasons quoted, don't in general want to pay too much and in will tend to buy the fakes. As long as they don't know, they are quite happy and the objects are perfectly good enough to fulfill the purpose for which they are being bought. This takes the pressure of the real material and effectively increases the supply to the real lover of the genre.

As an example, during the 19th century many aristocrats and wealthy landowners across Europe regretted flogging off their ancestral armour during the 'Age of enlightenment'. As a result firms such as Schmidt of Munich set up a large company to make and supply everything from armours, shields, staff weapons, tents and much besides. Some of the material was real, or partially so, but the bulk was made in-house. A typical example was an industrial magnate in the UK who acquired a 'Baronial Hall', a coat-of-arms and started buying armour and other evidence of his supposed ancestry. There is a delicious photo of his armoury that has a shelf running around the walls on which rested a long line of helms and helmets - every one (about 40 - 50) a total and obvious fake. The point is, he didn't know and probably didn't really care, they fulfilled the role he had bought them for.

Ian Bottomley

Ian, theres some truth in what you are saying...now the rest of us who really do care just have to be able to tell the difference....

[estcrh]

All, I too saw the so-called 'riding-whip' and wondered about the practicalities of beating a horse with an iron bar. Not only that, but a whip in which the end had been rather crudely flattened into a spatulate shape that would have severely damaged the animal if it had been hit by the edge rather than the flat. Obviously someone is knocking these items out - both the whips and jitte having a distinctive family look about them.

But, and this is where you surprise me gents, thus it has ever been. As soon as the value of the originals exceeds the cost of reproduction, along comes the fakers and the market is salted with the bad amongst the good. Think about all those ravishing Meiji period tanto with their writhing silver dragon koshirae and superlative lacquered scabbards. Total fakes made to make money when the artists had been thrown on the scrap-heap. Same with the armour makers in Meiji times. Do-maru, o-yoroi and haramaki by the hundreds, admittedly often incorporating old pieces, but 'every one from a daimyo household that had fallen on hard times esteemed foreign tourist'. It was no different in Europe during the 'gothic revival'. Ateliers like Spitzer's in Paris and many more in Germany churned out armours, wheel lock pistols and swords, every one of which 'had been discovered in remote Bohemian castle'. Best of the lot was Pratt in London whose supplier, Grimshaw' made hundreds of great helms, none of which are even remotely wearable, yet which fooled the 'experts' of the day. In the words of the old song - It's the same the whole world over ...'

Ian Bottomley

Here is another one of those whips or riding crops.... I used to think this dealer was fairly competent. Is there ANYONE here who thinks this has a chance of being REAL???? Shouldnt this dealer be able to tell that there is a problem with this?? If he lets this be sold without at least mentioning that it MIGHT be a replica of fake can any other item they have be trusted completely??? At least 3 of these were sold at the same time on yahoo Japan and even though they were completely different in looks alarm bells should have gone off for any experienced dealer or collector based on the fact that 3 items such as this with no wear and not so great workmanship popping up at the same exact time is next to impossible unless someone was selling a collection. I have never seen any Japanese whip or riding crop in any picture or for sale that looks like these, I could be wrong and there may be real antique examples but I still think that any experienced person who buys and resells ANY item that has this look be it a jutte or whip has to have an idea that there may be a problem, I'm just saying.........

http://cgi.ebay.com/2700-J-P-Samurai-An ... 2120wt_932

 

Here is the jutte they have for sale>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/2772-J-P-Samurai-An ... 1997wt_932

[watsonmil]

Dear ALL,

If anyone is naive enough to believe that Japanese dealers are above selling reproduction and/or outright fakes just because they are dealing in artifacts that are culturally from their homeland, .... think again. I am sure there are many Japanese dealers who are completely honest, ... but from my experience they are just as many prone as any nationality to dishonesty. I've noticed on the NMB a tendency to accept whatever the Japanese say as being the last word on the subject of Japanese Art and artifacts. I can only smile at this, ..... given that the Japanese probably have faked more signatures on swords, Netsuke, Bronzes, etc. as examples than any single European nationality ever thought of faking signatures on art works. This often done at the actual time of manufacture in some cases 100's of years ago ! We occidentals do not have a corner when it comes to forgery. It is a WORLD WIDE phenomena. ...Ron Watson

[drbvac]

Amen Ron and never mind the art of the sword - how many billions of articles from the mid 50's to date are floating around peoples houses, from trinkets to other types of art that when turned over say "Made in Japan"

[Bugyotsuji]

The 'riding crop' or whatever shown above gives no pleasure to the eye. It is crudely and garishly made and bears no second glance. If a punter wants to buy and display that thing in their house, then why not? It is true that the antiques market has been seriously degraded by the increasing flood of such stuff, but a greater problem lies at the higher end of the market, I suspect. In the meantime, let us create a small pool of people who 'will not be fooled'!!! :lol:

[Henry Wilson]

think of the 'I'm heavily into martial arts ... ' chat up line with regard to Nihon to

 

That is one heck of a chat up line. Gets them all the time.

[Ford Hallam]

There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only, are this man’s lawful prey.

- John Ruskin

 

[Kevin]

Best of the lot was Pratt in London whose supplier, Grimshaw' made hundreds of great helms, none of which are even remotely wearable, yet which fooled the 'experts' of the day.

 

Reminds me of an old armourer I knew 20-25 years back. He made a lot of plate armour - definitely wearable, following actual historic designs and made using old manual techniques. Anyway, I dropped in to see him one day and go for a drink. I found him highly amused. A little earlier in the week he'd attended an auction and was a bit startled to recognise one of his sets of plate armour. It was being sold as the real McCoy. He didn't draw the auctioneer's attention to the fact, and it went for quite a large sum of money. The whole episode amused him, though he did say that he wished that he had been paid half the money it finally went for to make it in the first place. Mind you, he was also rather chuffed that his workmanship was good enough to fool the resident experts. :-)

 

Kevin

[Kevin]

There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only, are this man’s lawful prey.

- John Ruskin

 

 

 

I used to live in what was his family's back garden. :-)

 

Kevin

[estcrh]

I was just discussing the lack of value a Japanese gun barrel with no stock has when I ran across this item..who would have guessed?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 6552wt_932

[Bugyotsuji]

I was just discussing the lack of value a Japanese gun barrel with no stock has when I ran across this item..who would have guessed?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 6552wt_932

 

Eric, who would have guessed what? Barrels come up all the time in Japan. Do you mean the (high/low) price, or the rarity?

[estcrh]

I was just discussing the lack of value a Japanese gun barrel with no stock has when I ran across this item..who would have guessed?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 6552wt_932

 

Eric, who would have guessed what? Barrels come up all the time in Japan. Do you mean the (high/low) price, or the rarity?

That they were so valuable!!

[watsonmil]

Eric,

Beauty / Value is in the eye of the beholder. ... Ron Watson

[estcrh]

This finally sold for $600+ and its an obvious FAKE!! This is why we are seeing so many dealers carrying items that they MUST realize are not real....no integrity at all. Maybe a list of dealers that sell items like this would be helpful.