Star stamped gendiato on ebay. What does the mune stamp mean

[drdata]

Seems like a legit gendaito with a star stamp now listed on ebay (two actually, other is for 13K with presentation mounts or such). This one:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... ink:top:en

 

Has a mune stamp that I'm not familiar with. Hoping someone here can shed some light.

 

Thanks in advance.

[huntershooter]

I've a star stamped Kanehide blade with a tiny seki stamp on the mune.

Can't see stamp in the photo well enough to be certain, but would imagine that is what it could be.

[k morita]

Nice blade. :D

[drdata]

Thanks for the comments. I have a Kanehide also, it has a small seki at the top on the ura side (the date side). I do not recall any mune markings; but do note that some info on the net regarding Kanehide indicates he was unique for a triple stamped/inspected blade. Guess its time to pop the tsuka off again and confirm.

 

A pic of my seki is attached.

 

 

Regards

 

[SwordGuyJoe]

That's not a seki stamp. I have seen it before, but can't recall what it is called. Someone else will come up with it for you.

[drdata]

That's not a seki stamp. I have seen it before, but can't recall what it is called. Someone else will come up with it for you.

 

 

I hope so, as my curiosity is piqued for sure.

 

At:

 

http://www.samuraisword.com/nihonto_c/S ... /index.htm

 

They have a Kanehide and mention/show a small seki proof, but not enough detail to make out; does not seem to match.

[moss]

Hello,

 

Looks like a Nagoya acceptance stamp.

 

Cheers

Moss

[SwordGuyJoe]

Moss nailed it - Nagoya.

[drdata]

Hello,

 

Looks like a Nagoya acceptance stamp.

 

Cheers

Moss

 

Just to clarify, are you are saying that the ura stamp on my Kanehide is the Nagoya stamp?

 

If so, any ideas on the mune stamp posted from the ebay item?

 

Having trouble finding a matching Nagoya stamp. Most seem to be on NCOs and do not match my ura stamp.

 

For example, this does not seem to match:

 

http://japaneseswords.gotdns.com/100Gendai29.htm

 

Regards

[pcfarrar]

Having trouble finding a matching Nagoya stamp. Most seem to be on NCOs and do not match my ura stamp.

For example, this does not seem to match:

http://japaneseswords.gotdns.com/100Gendai29.htm

 

That's a Suwa stamp on the tsuba of the linked sword.

[drdata]

Thanks!

 

Was able to find a reference for the Nagoya stamp. Hope its ok to post.

 

 

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[iowa1111]

Just a question, but would a principle inspection mark, and no other marking, other then signiture, indicate a hand made or non-traditional make? I have a Kanehide with the principle but no others?

[moss]

Joseph,

 

My understanding is that the principal mark is purely to confirm acceptance by the IJA that the blade conforms to standards.

When I say standards I mean ,length ,curvature etc not necessarily construction.

The sword would have to be in hand to know wether handmade,oil tempered,water tempered ,tamahagne,or western steel.

 

At least the acceptance stamp without showa stamp increases your odds, unless of course it was removed at some point.

 

I may be wrong on any or all of these points as this is only my understanding.,

 

Cheers

Moss

[iowa1111]

Thanks for the information. And it does put my mind at ease, at least some. I am considering a polish and will only move forward when I am sure that is a Gendito, I have been hopeful since Kanehide did not recieve his rjt mastership until after the date on mine, which is Oct 1941. But I have not moved on it because of the stamp mentioned.

 

Thanks

[moss]

Joseph,

 

 

Have you thought of just getting a window done?

It may prove to remove any doubt from your mind.

Too me that would be a logical step forward.

 

Cheers

Moss

[drdata]

Sorry for being away from my own thread. Did not seem it had been updated. Anyway, I can confirm my kanehide has a mune stamp as well, and that its also the Nagoya stamp. So, it has a star, and two matching nagoyas. Pic attached.

 

Any significance to a third stamp?

 

My blade is very bright, but I find the hammon is light. I attribute to wartime polish. From what I can tell to get a good polish we are talking 3k, a few years, and need to send to Japan, an act that is complicated by the stamps.

 

This seems a lot of hassle for just a window. That said, I'd consider 90 bucks to see an inch or so of what the blade could be, I guess. (the smarter half says leave it alone and I will).

 

I know there is Fred Lhoman here in the states, and for a "gunto" such a venue may not be sacrilege.

 

thoughts?

[SwordGuyJoe]

Henry,

I would highly doubt that your blade is showato due to the star stamp. Star stamped blades are gendai by Rikugun Jumei Tosho. Chris Bowen could confirm for sure.

[iowa1111]

Any ideas when the "star stamps" started being placed on blades?

[cabowen]

Any ideas when the "star stamps" started being placed on blades?

 

 

This was covered in another thread on this board....I don't remember exactly but think it was in 1942 or 1943...Someone with a better memory will most likely chime in....

[george trotter]

The star stamp of the Rikugun Jumei Tosho system has been discussed at some length elsewhere (look up "star stamped" in the search facility). Chris is correct...after being trialled from Sho 15, the star stamp system was implemented nationally from Sho 17 (1942). The presence of small stamps in conjunction with the star stamp seems to be consistant with the practise of two of the three types of forging...

Firstly, very highly qualified smiths made swords at arsenals...these (I think) have no star stamp, but do have a small "arsenal" stamp eg. "Ko", Saka", Na" and the smiths name....this may be the trial period?

Secondly was that qualified RJT scheme smiths worked in two ways...

1. at forges on the various army workshop (arsenal) grounds...after inspection/testing, these were struck with the star stamp quality mark (indicating correct tamahagane/fold forging/water quenching and dimension/weight conformity), these were said to have been marked with the arsenal stamp also...these would be "Ko", Saka" and "Na"...this must be the one on your example...it is also noted that these swords, while required to be signed by the maker, were not specifically required to have a date on the ura.

2. the swords made by the RJT smiths at their own private forges as part of this scheme, were required to be signed by the maker and dated also...these were sent (monthly?) to the collection centres/arsenals for testing/inspection and when passed were struck with the star stamp...these do not have the arsenal stamp, only the star and usually a "contract/accounting" number.

Hope this helps,

George.

[cabowen]

2. the swords made by the RJT smiths at their own private forges as part of this scheme, were required to be signed by the maker and dated also...these were sent (monthly?) to the collection centres/arsenals for testing/inspection and when passed were struck with the star stamp...these do not have the arsenal stamp, only the star and usually a "contract/accounting" number.

Hope this helps,

George.

 

I know of at least one RLT who worked at his home forge where the inspector from the army would come, inspect and stamp blades, and transport them back to the arsenal on a regular basis....

 

Also, I don't believe these blades were tested. It was only the two blades submitted by a smith when applying for RLT status that were tested as I understand it....Hope that clarifies things....

[george trotter]

Thanks for those comments Chris...you are probably correct, some (or all?) the private forge swords may have been inspected "on site" rather than "sent in" for inspection. The "on site" inspected blades may well have been collected at the same time....the records I have seen are not precise on this.

Also, some more recent translating I have done with Morita san on the regulations for RJT swords indicates that all swords were inspected for quality as required, but swords for cutting tests on an iron bar and a bundle of straw were only taken at random ...again, the literature is imprecise, but I gather that not ALL swords were TESTED, although all were inspected....whether, as you say, the cutting tests were only done on the applicant's samples as submitted and not thereafter is not clearly stated in the records I read.

An interesting topic.

Regards,

George.

[iowa1111]

So, just to clarify. A 1941 Kanehide with the inspection marks on the mune with a date and a signature, should pass mustard as a nihonto? Or your most reasonable assumptions?

[David Flynn]

I believe Yoshihara Kuniie, was one of the so called collectors for the army. I believe there was an article on this in the JSSUS.

[george trotter]

So, just to clarify. A 1941 Kanehide with the inspection marks on the mune with a date and a signature, should pass mustard as a nihonto? Or your most reasonable assumptions?

 

Hi Joe, you call your stamp on Kanehide a "principal mark"...I'm not sure what this means. If it is a tiny "Na", Saka" or "Ko" stamp, then it conforms to the marking of gendaito produced by smiths at arsenals in the early RJT period system before the national star stamp systems were introduced in 1942...I think.

If by "principal mark" you mean the large Seki or Sho stamp commonly found, then no...your sword is probably not Gendaito.

Regards,

George.

[cabowen]

I believe Yoshihara Kuniie, was one of the so called collectors for the army. I believe there was an article on this in the JSSUS.

 

He was an inspector in the Tokyo environs. He visited the home/forge several times of one RJT I spoke with and even did a yaki-ire demo there once on a blade the smith made....He inspected the blades, stamped the star, and took them back to Tokyo.