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What do you make of this?


Ford Hallam

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Thierry,

 

I have to admit this does indeed look cast.

 

This then raises an uncomfortable suggestion. The texture inside the punched mark at the top of the nakago ana appears the same as the surrounding metal. This makes it look as though that punched mark ( the kuchibeni) was also cast. It's hard to be absolutely sure but it looks to me as though there are fine seam lines running along the sides of the tendrils. This would indicate to me that the wax original was formed in a 2 part rubber mould. A rubber mould that was made on an original tsuba.

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Very nice casting job indeed!!

 

I would think this tsuba is very young.

Mark G

 

Keith, I would say that laquer looks very new. Maybe to protect it from rust?

It does have a nice shape. What size is it?

You can age a tsuba in short order, with some patina mixes. Or the look of age that is.

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Hi Mark

 

I tend to agree with you, but the texture and finish are really very convincing. I've been over it with a powerful magnifying glass and still cant find a casting flash. It's most certainly not the usual casting finish. Its also quite heavy for a cast piece. I think I bought it because it looked so good even though I suspected it was cast. The size is 2 5/8 inches both across and top to bottom. The lacquer.... Well who knows? its worn in places but extremely hard and quite a thin coating. Maybe recent as you suggest.

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ARGHH!! I just bought a tsuba from this seller!!

 

It's this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWNX:IT

 

i bought it because it looked like a unique piece; I had never seen this spiral theme before and figured that there was no way it could be fake.

 

Gah. Now I'm just upset. How would I prove to the seller that it is a fake and I want to send it back?? This could be a big hassle.

 

peace.

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Chuck.

 

The description says the plate is hammered and forged. The tsuba in the pics is obviously cast. I would imagine that such a blatant lie is at least enough to allow you to return the item. (Then again, why should they admit that its cast ?) Be prepared for a refusal though. Your only course of action at the end of the day may be to leave extremely negative feedback. :steamed: (Not very satisfying, I know.) :bang:

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Sorry guys

 

Lee's question made me read my own post again. My post was supposed to read 'If the tsuba in the pics was obviously cast', not 'The tsuba in the pics was obviously cast'.

 

The pitfalls of writing a post too hastily I'm afraid. Apologies for giving the wrong impression there. :oops:

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Kieth,

I'm not so sure yours is cast.

I was talking about thierry's nice tsuba being the wonderful casting job.

 

I wouldn't think Chuck's was cast. But the pics are not that good. It would seem very unlikely that a nice Shakudo rim cover would have been added to a cast tsuba. :dunno:

Those nakago ana, punch crimps, do look a bit suspect though.

 

Mark G

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Chuck,

 

I'm afraid I would be inclined to view your tsuba with suspicion. The surface does look to have that very characteristic "as cast" granular/ "wet sand" appearance. The kuchi-beni ( punch marks around the nakago ana, look to have the same "as cast" texture and the copper seki-gane doesn't look as though it was ever shaped to accept a nakago. The black patina on the seki-gane is not at all convincing to me either. Copper doesn't go black like that unless some sort of proprietary, instant patination fluid is applied.

 

I suspect the "shakudo" rim is actually copper also and has been similarly patinated. I find the black to be far too blotchy and "stained" to convince me it's a genuine shakudo patina. Fitting a simple rim like that is quite easy and would be very helpful in hiding the inevitable seam that the wax model would have had. It's very hard to see but the inner edges of the openings (nakago-ana and hitsu) do look a bit suspect.

 

apologies for not being able to be more reassuring.

 

regards,

 

ford

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Hi Keith, Sorry for the confusion.

We have not heard Ford Sensei's take on your tsuba yet. Maybe you could post a few new pics at an angle, under good light, so we can see the inner walls.

I'm sure Ford will be able to tell. he seems to be the master at this game for sure.

Just makes you wonder how many of these cast tsuba are out there in peoples collections.

Some are very hard to spot.

 

 

Ford,

Great analysis on that last one. Do you think the sellers are just that ignorant, or just lieing to make the sale? Or some of both?

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Great thread Ford and all...since we are talking a fair bit about cast iron tsuba, maybe I'll risk being laughed off the stage and mention what we "old geezers" always used to do to "test" for cast iron (apologies if this has already been mentioned and discarded/derided etc).

i haven't collected tsuba for over 30 years, but back then we used to do the "ping" test. We'd hold the tsuba horizontal in the left hand by placing thumb under and second finger over...tips meeting in nakago ana. this allowed a firm/safe hold while leaving tsuba virtually "floating" and loose in our hold. With right hand finger we'd "flick" the rim. If it rings clear like a bell it is forged...if a dull thud, it is a casting. We believed in this test as it always appeared reliable to us...is this still done? or is it a discredited old wive's tale...?

regards,

George.

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Great thread Ford and all...since we are talking a fair bit about cast iron tsuba, maybe I'll risk being laughed off the stage and mention what we "old geezers" always used to do to "test" for cast iron (apologies if this has already been mentioned and discarded/derided etc).

i haven't collected tsuba for over 30 years, but back then we used to do the "ping" test. We'd hold the tsuba horizontal in the left hand by placing thumb under and second finger over...tips meeting in nakago ana. this allowed a firm/safe hold while leaving tsuba virtually "floating" and loose in our hold. With right hand finger we'd "flick" the rim. If it rings clear like a bell it is forged...if a dull thud, it is a casting. We believed in this test as it always appeared reliable to us...is this still done? or is it a discredited old wive's tale...?

regards,

George.

 

There is some truth to this. In the racing business, we use billet forged cranks. If you set/stand the crank on the flywheel flange, you can take a screwdriver and "whack" a through. It will ring like a bell. However, if it has a crack in it, it will thud. This is how we field check them. Also, there are a lot of Chinese fake cast cranks (yes racing too) that are machined to look like billet forged, and if you pull this test on them, they thud when you "whack" them.

 

Not a perfect test, but it helps weed out most junk.

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This very topic was discussed not so long ago on another forum and the general concensus of opinion there after careful deliberation, was to the effect that as otherwise sensible people, we should cease and desist from wanton tsuba tapping as not only did it give non nihonto types the impression that we were slightly silly, but also that it proved nothing. :D The practice was I believe, ultimately proscribed as an aberration, something akin to consulting chicken guts as an augury. (Everybody knows that for a really accurate augury, nothing less than sheep guts will do).

 

Sorry George. ;) But as you suspected, it is an exploded urban myth. :) Personally however, I still check a new tsuba with this test (but only in private of course).

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I agree, those who have some engineering/metallurgy background will not just dismiss this test...I know my grandfather, a blacksmith and wheelwright by trade would tap test any number of bearings, rims, drive rods etc to see if they were sound...the clear ring is what he listened for. It must mean something.

To say that this test was discussed at a forum and dismissed really begs the question...what practical qualifications did the forumites have and what were the terms of reference? I say this because I remember that virtually all "thud" tsubas, were (as a rule of thumb) certainly of an inferior "look" and most failed items were clearly cast, not wrought...in fact I remember it was possible to predict with some accuracy which would fail, just by the "look" of the work/texture etc. Despite the "thumbs-down" I suspect that there will always be a lot of "closet rim pingers" (listening Keith?) checking their tsubas...we all hate that dull thud! If nothing else, the test will say something about the composition of the tsuba (truly homogenous/cracked/cast/airpocket/slag inclusion etc).

I suppose, conversely, someone "up -to-date" can tell us the "new" method of testing, or at least tell us why some thud and some ring when "pinged" under the old test?...and what it means?

Lots of fun,

George.

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George.

 

In defence of the closet rim pingers and wanton tsuba tappers, although I cannot speak for our more exotic brethren the rim nibblers, I think the ping test does indicate the homogeneity of the metal. Since I know also that there are cast tsuba that ring like a bell when pinged, the ping test therefore does not determine accurately if the tsuba was cast or otherwise. Faults and inclusions in forged steel also produce a flat sound when tested in this way.

 

As a rim pinger I now feel immensely empowered. :glee:

 

On the other forum this subject was treated fairly similarly to the light hearted way in which it is being discussed here. Once a rim pinger always a rim pinger, regardless of scientific arguments either way.

With regard the new scientific method of testing, it wouldnt surprise me to find that it consists of placing the tsuba in a dedicated machine where it is suspended and then gently tapped by a special little tool.................... :lol:.......... Far more scientific than the 'old' way.

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Sorry to derail this discussion of rim-pinging and nibbling and suchlike, but I am in a quandry regarding what do about this tsuba.

 

I've finally got it in hand, and I can see clearly that it is cast. Thanks to you guys, I've had an education in what to look for (not only is this one cast, there's another one in my collection which is also fake. Grrrr...)

 

the problem is - I like the tsuba. Especially now that I know it's a fake, because I have a sword project I'm working on that I can use it for, and I won't feel guilty about using an actual real antique for it.

 

If I had paid $400 or more for it, I'd be feeling angry and ripped off, but for $200... I mean, can you really get an antique tsuba with a real shakudo rim for $200? That should have been a tip-off right there that this was a fake.

 

In terms of reproduction tsubas - Fred Lohman offers his tsubas for about $100, and this one is far superior to a Lohman tsuba - he makes no pretense that his are anything other than modern copies, while this one has to pass as an antique. So it should look better than his.

 

Some of the reproduction tsubas at swordstore.com go as high as $240. (side note: I have a Sword Store iaito. The rim of the tsuba chimes beautifully when pinged. It's not an antique.)

 

SO... to sum up... The item was a fake and not an antique, which is disappointing, but I did get a spiffy reproduction tsuba that I can use. I probably overpaid a bit for it, but I wasn't grossly ripped off.

 

My questions are: Should I try to negotiate with the seller for a partial refund (say, $50 to $100) since the item is not as described?

 

And how to translate all this mess into feedback for the seller? I'm not sure if positive (it is a spiffy tsuba, and was delivered promptly), neutral (it was not as described, but OTOH I didn't get ripped off), or negative (this seller sells fakes!! Run away!! Run away!!) is appropriate here.

 

What to do?

 

 

peace.

 

 

(EDIT: postscript) I just tried the "ping" test with the new tsuba and the other one I suspect may be a fake, and both passed. They Ping. No Thud. So either I am wrong about them, or the fakers are on to youse guys and are casting pingable tsubas.

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(EDIT: postscript) I just tried the "ping" test with the new tsuba and the other one I suspect may be a fake, and both passed. They Ping. No Thud. So either I am wrong about them, or the fakers are on to youse guys and are casting pingable tsubas.

I'm pleased to come out of the closet and declare myself to be a "pinger". I once had a tsuba (a mate now has it on a Shinshinto koshirae) that was a Saga Kaneie iron tsuba that rang like a bell, a beautiful, sonorous ring with overtones. Of course, the workmanship backed it up. I hypothesise that the reason for the ring is the forging of the iron. The metal being compressed under the hammer must alter its acoustic response to being struck. I agree (and experience backs it) that obviously cast tsuba do go THUD. I think that if Chuck's cast tsuba rings, then it may be because it is modern, cast STEEL (as he speculates), quite different from cast IRON. All-in-all though, whatever the consensus or not of a bunch of forumites the ping is merely an incidental 'test' that is comforting to the 'pinger', much like a pacifier/dummy is for an infant. It is worth noting that the wheels of railway carriages are still subject to the 'ping' test with a hammer to gauge cracks. My final word on this subject comes from the Antiques Roadshow. The 'ping' test is performed on porcelain to detect cracks...

 

Bestests,

BaZZa.

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Chuck

 

Despite the lighthearted banter, the gist of this thread is not lost and I can see your dilemma.

It seems to me you need to answer two questions for yourself which in turn may dictate your handling of the feedback challenge.

Firstly, are you satisfied with the tsuba you received, despite the fact it may be cast? From your post you evidently are satisfied, although that does not mitigate the seller having misrepresented the item.

Secondly, what is to be achieved by requesting a partial refund from the seller when you do not want to return the tsuba as 'not as described'? The seller will predictably refuse, on the grounds that he sold it at auction in good faith and you had the winning bid. Further that you want to keep the item regardless of the fact that you claim it may not be as described.

 

Add to this the fact that the price reflected its status as a possible non genuine item. Also that you received a lesson in buying tsuba on ebay that fortunately did not cost you an arm and a leg. That in itself is quite a valuable gain. Others have paid much higher sums for the same lesson.

 

Personally, I think that a neutral feedback along the lines you have indicated may be the most appropriate under these circumstances. It raises a question in the minds of future buyers and knocks a few points off his feedback score. It is also the most you can do without initiating the rather lengthy dispute resolution procedure used by Ebay. :)

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Now, George.

 

We are faced with the problem of pingable fakes. Is there no justice in the world? Still, it allows for more happy hours of rim pinging without the inflated capital expenditure required to acquire a real antique tsuba........ I like to look on the bright side of these little setbacks. :glee:

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Good advice Chuck, only you can decide the best course for you and your seller. Whether or not to use known modern castings on restoration is an individual choice also. As for us derailing the thread (well me actually), although it was lighthearted, it was an interesting and related line...I think the salient point has been raised that these (now) obvious castings have rung true...I suppose it may well be advanced casting using steel as has been said. It is disturbing that these "copies' (if that's what they are) are so hard to detect. It certainly makes things harder for collectors...

regards,

George.

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The question is did the seller kno it was a fake, or not? Imho, many sellers are unaware of what they have, and do not have the expertise.

If it were me, I would indeed contact the seller, let him know that you believe it to be cast and modern, and politely tell him you plan on keeping it, but would like to know if he is prepared to offer a discount.

A good seller would either politely decline and maybe offer to take it back, or offer a small discount. Either way, if the response is polite and genuine, I might give a positive. If he is rude and totally dismissive, I would give a negative. This is no about whether you are keeping it or not, it is about what it was presented as.

You have nothing to lose by approaching him, as long as you are polite and don't make it seem like blackmail.

 

Just the way I would handle it. You may decide otherwise.

 

Brian

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Figured I'd at least know for sure what I am dealing with, so I took the day off work (I was going to anyway and putter around the house, so no loss) and treked up to the Flying Cranes gallery in NYC. I got an appraisal AND I got to gawk at their amazing selection of actual real authentic and antique tsubas. Sweeeeeet.

 

and the two tsuba that I suspected were fakes.... (drum roll).... are fakes!!! For exactly the reasons pointed out by Ford. Good eye there, Ford.

 

Now that I have some firm confirmation by someone that's actually handled the tsuba in question, I'm going to get in touch with the seller tonight. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

thanks for all your help, folks.

 

peace.

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Good point Lee...I must say i don't know the answer to the ring/thud debate. I suppose you are talking about cast iron bells? (we only used the ping test on iron tsuba to see if they were cast, not alloy ones). The bells cast from ferrous material that ring beautifully are probably those that pass the "ring" test. Many must be scrapped because they don't ring and of course, we don't hear these? Ultimately all iron/steel was molten at some point so all can be considered "cast". Some are then rolled/wrought, some are not. Some ring, some don't. I suppose, as Brian said initially, the ping test was discarded as it is so random? If members are testing their iron tsubas and are finding that even the new-made cast copies are ringing, then the test seems to be unreliable...or else we don't truly understand the metallurgy of what makes iron/steel ring. Since we used to use it 30 odd years ago to find "cast" iron tsuba and found it "generally" reliable, either something has changed dramatically in the composition of cast iron tsuba in that time, or we old geezers were deceiving ourselves. Still, the fact that metallurgists and engineers still use the ping test must say something as it still detects imperfect cast ferrous material components (train wheels, push-rods etc)...I haven't heard that it is used to detect faults in cast non-ferrous material, but maybe? I suppose from this, the "thud" we were hearing may not have been an indication of a cast tsuba, but an indication of some internal flaw...irrespective of whether the tsuba was cast iron or forged iron?

Regards,

george.

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