A little help with a Kagemitsu

[Marked Hamon]

Hi guys,

 

I'm looking at a nice katana with good horimono but part of the inscription makes no sense to me. It tallies with the oshigata in Fujishiro 136-139 and looks pretty close to the big Kagemitsu's: KAG 54 and KAG 60, who was supposed to be good at horimono but I can't translate what looks like gatsu after osa(fu?) in the mei. The same character is there in Fujishiro for the big guys. All looks good unless it's a gimei, which it may well be, but the horimono and the mei seem to make it a pretty safe bet, sort of.

 

Would appreciate any opinion, as it's between this an another nice, mumei koto katana in koshirae with very similar horimono. At twice the price.

 

Thanks guys,

 

Dave

[Bugyotsuji]

Surely that has to be the -fune of Osafune, Dave???

 

Osafune an old, old word meaning the place of a longboat; Osa is an ancient Korean pronunciation of Naga- or Cho- (long).

[Marked Hamon]

That's what one would think but I have had many Bizen Osafune blades and none of the second characters to Osafune looked like Gatsu. That part of the kanji for Osafune is usually dwarfed by the right hand side. Was this a characteristic of Kagemitsu? It's the same kanji in Koto hen for Kagemitsu.

 

It looks good, ironically, almost exactly the same construction as the sword I am alternating between, but if this is a genuine Bizen Kagemitsu, I would go for this.

 

The other is nice and the mounts complete but this is mounted as well and with a genuine Kagemitsu signature, at half the price, no comparison.

 

IF it is a genuine signature. I know 80% of famous signatures are supposed to e fakes, but this has the horimono Kagemitsu was famous for and the signatures look bloody close to those in Koto-Hen.

 

Thanks for your help. Does anybody have a genuine Kagemitsu? Seen one?

 

Would be greatly appreciative of any thoughts.

 

David.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Katana mei

[Marked Hamon]

Dear Jacques,

 

Are you implying that the sword should be signed tachi-mei for Bizen Kagemitsu? I have read where he predominantly signed katana mei but open to any and all.

 

Kagemitsu signed with a strange rendition of the second kanji in Osafune. It looks more like gatsu. This peculiarity is present both in the sword I am looking at and the genuine examples in Koto Hen.

 

I'm usually pretty good with spotting gimei, as I not only look at individual strokes, but also the overall feel of the mei. I stand back and see if it has the right flow. This one seems to, but I've been wrong a couple of times.

 

This may be an opportunity to own one of the classic Bizen masters, so I any help would be gratefully appreciated.

 

Thanks Jacques. Could you elaborate on your point a little more?

 

With Thanks,

Dave.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Are you implying that the sword should be signed tachi-mei for Bizen Kagemitsu? I have read where he predominantly signed katana mei but open to any and all.

 

 

I've never seen a long blade made by Kagemitsu with a katana mei and i've never read or heard he signed that way.

[Marked Hamon]

I've researched extensively and found no reference for a preference to signing all swords tachi-mei. I did find this:

 

"Bizen Kagemitsu is called Sahyohenjo in most accounts and his dated works show that he was born in the latter part of the 13th century. We have works from him dating from the Kagen era (1303) through the Kenmu era (1335). While his father and teacher, Nagamitsu, did not leave many tanto; Kagemitsu, on the other hand, has left us a great number of fine tanto that have survived through the years. He also made extraordinary tachi and katana."

 

It's only minutes until the auction ends. Thanks for your advise, but the signatures are too particular and too close to those in Fujishiro. I think I'm going to go for it, but not without trepidation.

 

Thanks Jacques.

 

Dave

[Mark]

i would look up the references, but from what i have seen i would expect a Bizen smith from the early 1300's to sign tachi-mei, i think katana mei from that period would be a-typical, like Aoe

[Marked Hamon]

I got it. from $700 to $3000, so the bidding was fierce.

 

I just hope I'm right.

 

I've read where Kagemitsu was something of a wag, making strange marks in his signatures and swapping signing duties with Nagamitsu. They would sign each other's swords. Under those conditions, anything is possible.

 

It looks to be a good sword, with good horimono, so we'll have to wait and see.

 

Thanks guys.

 

Dave

[reinhard]

I've read where Kagemitsu was something of a wag, making strange marks in his signatures and swapping signing duties with Nagamitsu. They would sign each other's swords. Under those conditions, anything is possible.

 

No, it's not. Jacques gave you the hint, but you wouldn't listen: KAGEMITSU never signed his blades on tachi-ura. Your "bargain" is just a waste of money. You might learn something about very poor gimei though.

 

reinhard

[moss]

Edited in good faith.

 

Moss

[Mark]

not quite sure where to go with this. seems unfair to the seller to make overly negative comments after the auction ended, especially when we clearly expressed our opinions before hand (i commented on the katana mei as did others). To continue this could end up causing potential problem, like interfering with the transaction....... am i way off base?

[Marked Hamon]

I've read where Kagemitsu was something of a wag, making strange marks in his signatures and swapping signing duties with Nagamitsu. They would sign each other's swords. Under those conditions, anything is possible.

 

No, it's not. Jacques gave you the hint, but you wouldn't listen: KAGEMITSU never signed his blades on tachi-ura. Your "bargain" is just a waste of money. You might learn something about very poor gimei though.

 

reinhard

 

Thank you for your kind words after a much sweated, tense decision. There is nothing more calming after making a complex, heart-racing decision than a hurl of abuse, after the fact, at my decision based upon years of study.

 

I got Jacques' 'hint', which was no hint at all but a straight well-meant opinion as he saw it, but found contrary evidence, or we should say more opinion some 700 years later, in subsequent research only moments before the auction finished. I've been collecting over 25 years and been through this process many times. I have been wrong but more often right.

 

I have also found that swords that have gimei that are cut so well by professional mei fakers to make determination so hard, to usually be very good swords to complete the deception, so whatever it is, it is likely to be a good sword. Samurai were generally not fools. If presented with a Gremlin with a Porsche badge on it, I think most Samurai could tell, pardon the time discrepancy in the metaphor.

 

I have had the exact same response when I have found big names in the past and they passed shinsa.

 

I have found an example of a tanto Kagemitsu signed katana-mei.

 

If the mei-faker had honto Kagemitsu to copy from, as he obviously did to get it so close with the highly idiosyncratic 'Osa', why would he blow it by putting the signature where Kagemitsu didn't? He had either a genuine sword or a good oshigata in front of him and superior skills to cut such a close resemblance (remember it was a full-time occupation for mei-fakers). Compare the mei of the sword I just bought with those in Fujishiro. It's as close as I've seen. This was no fool if he did fake this mei. To put it on the wrong side, when we have evidence that Kagemitsu DID make many katana and tachi (the distinguishing factor ultimately the side upon which he signed), makes no sense. I know tachi generally have a distinct kissaki, buy I have found the same on kissaki on katana.

 

As stated, I read where Kagemitsu was a wag and all rules went out the window. I have always recognised that this may be a gimei, but as stated, more than likely still a good sword. I had a big katana signed Enbun Kanemitsu that once the gimei was removed, was such a good sword that it drew the attention of Nobuo Ogasawara - author and curator of swords at the National Museum at Ueno Park; in the probability that you don't recognise the name.

 

I seem to be learning more about human nature than Japanese swords on this site, humble exception to Morita-San, Simon 'Thekrish', most others and certainly all Japanese who have been humble and helpful, not feeling the need to be abusive where there is no justification. There are just some very odd, rude people here that spoil it for the rest.

 

I always listen, but make my own decisions. That has been what led me to the top of my field in everything I have done.

 

Can we be nice, pleasant, amicable? Is that too much to ask? I fail to see the point of a rude message after the fact. The transaction was complete, decision made, all done, what was your objective?

 

Thank you Jacques for your well-meant advise given for the right reasons. Further research may prove you correct, but I didn't have the time. Rather end up with what is most likely good sword, regardless of Kaji, than miss out all together.

 

David Blencoe

[Lee Bray]

I seem to be learning more about human nature than Japanese swords on this site, humble exception to Morita-San, Simon 'Thekrish', most others and certainly all Japanese who have been humble and helpful, not feeling the need to be abusive where there is no justification. There are just some very odd, rude people here that spoil it for the rest.

 

 

You may well have started this yourself by changing your board name.

[moss]

You being the oddest and rudest Simon J binks.

 

Moss

[cabowen]

It bears keeping in mind that a mei is the easiest part to fake....

[Marked Hamon]

You being the oddest and rudest Simon J binks.

 

Moss

 

I have finally amended the post which started this. Go back and read that before digging yourself a deeper hole.

 

I think odd and rudest should be awarded to the person with some personal agenda constantly watching this board for the appearance of somebody that has realised his dreams and success beyond your ability. I checked back after you attacked me. I found nothing rude or incendiary in his posts and many members felt the same way, asking him to come back.

 

Yours are just bitter snipes from the depths of some strange psychosis.

 

MODERATOR.

[moss]

Simon,

As stated before just sign with your name it is disconcerting speaking to a ghost.

 

Moss

[jason_mazzy]

I for one look forward to seeing this blade go to shinsa. then we will have the most evidence yet. Will you post pics?

[Marked Hamon]

Dear Jason,

 

Once I get it, I most certainly will. I am sure that whatever it is, it will be a good blade.

 

You have been a source of cheer on this confounding board that would have Friedrich Perls lost for words.

 

Moss; get a job. You have nothing to add to this board but rancour. Look it up.

 

Dave

[moss]

Simon,

 

I have a job.

In fact I own the company and what you USED to earn is a true pitence in comparison to what I turnover.

So cut the snipes and sign with your name.

Your constant needling with remarks like "Dead end job" "get a job"etc will be answered by a Sydney Morning Herald article.

Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house.

To be kind to you, I will only give the link to those who PM me.

 

Moss

[Marked Hamon]

I neither request nor want your answers to my posts. You come in slinging insults which have nothing to do with my posts, mere vitriolic jabs wherever you can fit them.

 

I place this response on the public forum and not as a private message as many members have written to me stating you to be the prime problem with the harmony of this site.

 

You want to place this in the major newspapers? Go ahead, we're only facing the greatest disasters in our time, perhaps all time. I'm sure they will be overjoyed at the huge public attention a squabble on a message board for Japanese swords will bring, overwhelming Global Warming, earthquakes, Iraq, Iran, North Korea, etc.

 

You want an introduction to Rupert Murdoch, Rob Hulls, John Thwaites? The latter two are friends. Rob Hulls is the Governor General of Victoria; John, a recent vice Premier and Minister for the Environment.

 

However, what you have said to and about both myself and Simon Binks is categorically libellous and I have a team of solicitors on call. I am a solicitor.

 

I don't want to hear from you again.

 

I have checked some of your other posts, your English language skills are that of an 8 y/o, so don't try to tell me you run a big company, unless it's a prison.

 

You need professional help. I am the last person you want to incessantly irritate, as I am connected on so many levels. David Blencoe is not my name. Nobody uses their real name on such forums. I very much doubt that your nemesis IS actually Simon Binks.

 

I tried to ignore you for a long time, but you keep coming back with insults that have nothing to do with my posts. No more.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I have found an example of a tanto Kagemitsu signed katana-mei.

 

 

Seeing that i understand you are a true connoisseur, i'm sorry for my input

[moss]

Simon,

Not all business needs a grammar school education.

Mine is trade based so perhaps my language skills are not up to your level.

Jail Funny boy ,I do have a couple of blokes with a green and red star tatt. on the ear that work for me.

Your veiled threats don't scare me ,so we can mutually agree not to talk.

Connected on many levels....be careful, a power pole may jump out

 

Moss

[sanjuro]

Moss and Simon or Dave or whatever the hell your name is.....

 

Has it occurred to either of you that you are making fools of yourselves in order to make fools of each other?

 

Just the voice of reason........ :D

[moss]

Keith,

 

Too late ,I guess he just got me going.

Nice advice though thanks.

 

Moss

[Stephen]

[Marked Hamon]

Keith,

 

Too late ,I guess he just got me going.

Nice advice though thanks.

 

Moss

 

Moss, stay out of my posts. If those watching trace the thread back, you will see that I post honest, polite and pertinent questions until Moss comes in with his personal agenda. I express gratitude to all that help.

 

How did I get you going when I was merely talking swords to those helping out? You came in guns ablaze as usual. I would love to see if you are so brave in the flesh. I already know that answer to that point. I have seen your like crumble many times.

 

My posts are just about swords until Moss comes in with accusations and abuse which have nothing to do with the posts I place.

 

STAY OUT OF MY POSTS and there will be no problem.

 

I have had others from this forum private message me about you as being the general problem on this forum.

[moss]

You are not alone in the PM dept.

I'll stay out of your posts Simon....

If sign with your name as per the rules that's all I want nothing more.

 

 

Moss

[Stephen]

Ok im tired of this. Both of you to your rooms and dont come out until after supper which your not getting! Take it to PM s from now on we dont need this bickering.

 

better still take it face to face.

 

one point we do use our real names on this board ....well most of us who have nothing to hide.