Jump to content

Showato or Gendaito


Recommended Posts

Why does the nakago have a second ana at the very end? Surely one wouldn't want to place a mekugi at that spot??

 

While the seller says that this is the original shirasaya, the second mekugi ana and placement screams that this was at one point mounted in late 44 shin gunto mounts. I don't have a copy of Slough's on me, but there are more than one example of this in there.

 

Also - IMHO, I believe this is a gendai blade. I have owned a showa stamped gendai blade and even seen them papered. I know others see a stamp and automatically say showato, but that hasn't been my experience.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a little confused (ok, so that's my normal state). I've read that, yes, sometimes true gendaito have Showa or Gifu or arsenal marks, but what I don't understand is why the swordsmith would bother to hand-forge a blade to fill an order/contract from the military when the military was perfectly happy with oil-quenced showato. It makes more sense to me that any such blade would be a special order and, except for star-stamps (Juyo), would be unmarked. Or am I totally misunderstanding the procurement process?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Richard,

Despite all the talk to the contrary, there is still no absolute proof that any arsenal-marked (Showa stamp) blades are true Gendaito. Most experts dispute that, and they are likely not made from tamahagane.

Brian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seems I have been called out.....My boy is taking his nap and I have some time so here's a bit of what I have learned on the stamp topic...and yes, I do not comment specifically on items at auction, so I will make these "general" comments. You can connect the dots....

 

First of all, there are many different stamps seen on WWII era military issue blades. They have different meanings, uses, and histories. It would take much more time than I have at the moment to address the full story so what follows is the abridged version....I have assumed that full source citations are not necessary, but they can be provided if there is any doubt in what I will relate....

 

The showa stamp was used to indicate a non-traditionally made blade. Period. When you see a blade with this stamp, it means it is not a traditionally made blade. The government ordered that this stamp be used because some non-traditionally made blades were becoming difficult to tell apart from those made the traditional way. If anyone has seen a papered showa stamped blade, it speaks more to the shinsa team than the blade.

 

Seki stamps were placed to identify the blade as manufactured in Seki and may have also served as a local acceptance stamp. The bulk of the gunto made in WWII came from Seki. There was a veritable gunto cooperative where this business was conducted. 99% of all gunto made were not traditionally made in Seki. There may be the odd ball seki stamped blade that is traditionally made but it would be extremely rare. Some people in Japan tell me the Seki stamp was the same as the Showa stamp, others say it is not certain. Personally, outside of two Seki smiths, I ignore them all as too few are worth the time to worry about it....

 

The Star stamp was used by the military as an acceptance stamp on blades made by the Rikugun Jumei Tosho for the military. These smiths had to pass a rigorous test to be accepted into the contract program. They received tamahagane from the military (which, as a strategic resource, was controlled by the military) and charcoal from the prefectural governor. This is documented fact. Therefore, in theory, all star stamped blades were made traditionally with tamahagane. In practice, who is to say that some smith(s) weren't hording it and passing off western steel blades??? Well, there are two good reasons why this was probably very rare: first, the blades, as I said, were inspected. Yoshihara Kuniie, a prominent smith of the time, worked as an inspector. You aren't going to fool him and risk being tossed out of the program. Second, people were patriotic. They were making the best blades they could for their soldiers. It may have happened, but it was most likely rare....Safe bet to say that star stamped blades are traditionally made.

 

I have never seen a showa or Seki stamped blade pass an NBTHK shinsa. I have seen Star stamped blades pass and have owned at least one that I recall submitting just to see what would happen after someone made all kinds of noise about how the NBTHK wouldn't paper one....it indeed passed.

 

Why is there so much confusion about stamps? Because nearly all Japanese collectors have shunned WWII era blades, records were destroyed, many Japanese don't much like to talk about WWII related topics, and the experts have never bothered to really research these blades because...see above.

 

I have spent many pleasurable hours talking with several WWII era Rikugun Jumei Tosho about their experiences, spent many hours at the Diet Library digging up old records and period literature (which is difficult to get into-being a university professor made it easy), and sought out many books and papers that most people would never bother to hunt down even if they had heard of them. I also have handled hundreds, if not thousands, of WWII era blades in the past 35 years. As I result, I feel very comfortable with the above statements.

 

As a result, my recommendation to any budding collector is to consider star stamped blades. I have never seen a bad one. They are, on average, pretty decent. Some are better than others, but you can hardly go wrong with them. Conversely, they are not on the same level as the smith's custom or private work and as such are not the best you will find, but they are honest, traditional swords that a new collector can buy with some confidence.

 

Seki and Showa stamped swords can be left for the martial artists, amateur polishers and WWII memorabilia collectors as they are not nihon-to ...anyone looking to learn about nihon-to will be wasting their time with them....

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

because some non-traditionally made blades were becoming difficult to tell apart from those made the traditional way.

 

Seki and Showa stamped swords can be left for the martial artists, amateur polishers and WWII memorabilia collectors as they are not nihon-to ...anyone looking to learn about nihon-to will be wasting their time with them....

 

Isn't t a bit contradictory? I mean, if non-traditional and traditional blades were such similar that they recquired a stamp(seki/showa) to differenciate them, why ones are out of interest and not the others for antone looking to learn about nihonto?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

because some non-traditionally made blades were becoming difficult to tell apart from those made the traditional way.

 

Seki and Showa stamped swords can be left for the martial artists, amateur polishers and WWII memorabilia collectors as they are not nihon-to ...anyone looking to learn about nihon-to will be wasting their time with them....

 

Isn't t a bit contradictory? I mean, if non-traditional and traditional blades were such similar that they recquired a stamp(seki/showa) to differenciate them, why ones are out of interest and not the others for antone looking to learn about nihonto?

 

 

To those that have studied they are similar in shape only. The Seki/Showa-to lack the handmade artistry in the ji-ba. Not all imperial army personnel, or all Japanese, for that matter, are sword experts, and were able to tell the difference.

 

They are only similar to those that do not know the difference. Hopefully, collectors of nihon-to are either able to tell the difference or are striving toward that goal.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Chris, what a clear concise assessment you have given...I thank you, I also have observed these swords for 40+ years and have to agree with all you have said....I too have a very high respect for star stamp blades. While I don't collect Sho and Seki stamped swords, I do have two by these recorded makers of Seki which have no stamps and exhibit hada and nie...I keep them for interest...they are not sunobe blades, but neither are they tamahagane gendaito...I call them "showato", trad. made, but western mill steel.

I trust that this next is not a departure from the thread, but it may be timely, so may I mention the "matsu" in a circle stamp shown in Fuller & Gregory and Kapp & Yoshihara...I have seen only two swords with this stamp and they have been exclusive to two smiths...both good gendaitosho, the Yamagami brothers, Akihisa and Munetoshi. The blades with this stamp (and no others), have both been in Type 3 fittings, were both true gendaito and both dated 1943 or after. Munetoshi was RJT.

I conclude from this small sample, that this Matsu in a circle stamp may have been a "shop" stamp for the Yamagami brothers of Niigata. Can you comment Chris?

Regards,

George.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Yamagami brothers were professional smiths who trained at the Denshujo and/or the Nihonto Gakuin (both run by Kurihara Akihide). They made traditional swords. What the matsu stamp you refer to means, I do not know. It could have been used as a workshop stamp, a local acceptance stamp, a stamp indicating a non-traditional blade, or traditional blade, or ....???? I do think it is local as I have not seen it elsewhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi all,

 

I have specifications when jumei-tosho makes the sword.

And, I am guessing that a standard drawing of the sword had adhered to the specification.

This is a very interesting document.

 

Will anyone translate this specifications into English?

Because my English is unskilled, I cannot do it.

 

And, I want to announce the English translation of the specifications only to this Forum.

 

Only 3 pages. When translating it into English, I also help you. :D

 

Anyone?

post-191-1419678074575_thumb.jpg

post-191-14196780748224_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

The title is [Research of making swords/ 作刀研究] pub 1942.(April,1942), Vol,3 ,#10.

The standard blade length and the weight and inspection method etc. when Jumei tosho's

sword delivers it to the army are written in this book.

post-191-14196780755588_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Morita San,

Thank you so much for bringing this document up. I will be VERY interested in seeing if someone or perhaps Nobody (Koichi san) can translate.

 

Me too!

 

Thanks Chris, George, et all. Once again very interesting and informative.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is blowing me away with the useful info. :bowdown:

Thanks Chris...you answered a whole lot of frequent questions here, and I am going to have to turn that into a small article for ease of finding. I think i will also move this thread to WW2 Japanese swords section.

Morita san, I think it is wonderful and generous of you to share that article with us, and I am most grateful. I am hoping one of our members such as Moriyma san or Markus or one of the others will be able to assist. This will add very valuable info to the Shotawo research. I am honored you would care to publish it here.

 

Brian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Buy Price just dropped by a grand , still no bargain.

 

Regardless of whether this is gedai or showato, this isn't going to sneak up on anyone as a steal. Although, for people who collect Kanemichi, this would be a very valuable addition to their collection. Two major points of distinction, one being the size (this thing is huge) and the second is the use of gunome choji over the typical seki sanbonsugi.

 

I personally have never held a Kanemichi blade that I just had to have, but I know there are people out there who just love his work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's keep pricing discussion to a minimum here please, and I think we are on to discussing better things that this sword, most of which has been covered. The sword will find its own level in the market. I would prefer to continue down the info road we find ourselves on currently.

 

Brian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...