Translation help needed.

[Stephen]

what i was saying well cut is the first kanji after the saygaki, the other side in ? does not look like the same hand, gald it took a mistake to get rineHard to get to post on something, guess thats what im good for.

[iowa1111]

Is there agreement that this junk or is their a savage value??

[Stephen]

id not call it junk, just a anomaly did you PM Reinhard

[reinhard]

Respectfully guys, I think the translation is like a dog chasing its tail. I don't think we are going to get a clear translation, because I don't think there is one. The comments are pointing to this one being low class and ruined. I don't think the mei is a: original, b: well done and c: done by someone knowledgeable.

Everything points to this one having been worked on, messed around with, and misrepresented.

 

Voila. It wasn't that difficult, was it.

 

reinhard

[george trotter]

Respectfully guys...the question asked was about translating the inscriptions...that is what most have tried to do without reference to quality or condition of the blade....it is only fair that we treat the poster's question with respect.

Can we hear Morita san and Moriyama san say there is no possible translation of this inscription before making a final conclusion please?

On the other point...if a sword is "low class and ruined", does that mean no discussion is possible?

Regards,

George.

[Nobody]

I think that there is only one correct translation for the inscription, because it was inscribed by someone who knew what he/she was doing. It surely has its unique meaning, and I only cannot understand it. That's all.

[george trotter]

Well Joseph, there you have it. It seems that the inscription (which I consider well cut and interesting), is not readily translateable into English. Moriyama san thinks it is very specific to the writer's frame of mind, and only the writer knows exactly what meaning he/she intended...if Moriyama san, as a native Japanese speaker has not come across this saying before, or cannot make a reasoned attempt at the meaning, I can accept that it is most likely beyond the rest of us at NMB...sorry we can't help more. I apologise for persisting on this, but it is not common to have longish inscriptions on a tang without a Tosho mei, so yours was interesting and it is always best to get the fullest feedback from the appropriate people before reaching a final conclusion IMHO.

Regards,

George.

[Lee Bray]

It could also just be gibberish.

If the native speakers and the good translators can't get it...

 

Perhaps a Chinese inscription on a cut down nihonto with a reasonable patina?

I'll ask a native Chinese speaker if it makes sense.

 

I honestly don't think the mei is well cut.

The kanji are large, clunky and rather square looking.

Also, why the two directions of yasurime? Vertical?

[Brian]

Voila. It wasn't that difficult, was it.

Ah but Reinhard, if we went straight there, then how would we have kept you entertained and amused? :?

 

Brian

[george trotter]

Hi Lee,

You could be right...if it is indeed Chinese as you suggest, perhaps you can let us know?...to me however, it doesn't look like Chinese interference.

I suppose the quality of the cutting of the mei is a matter of taste...I have probably been seeing too many awful WWII nakirishi mei and in comparison these kanji are perfect...in point of fact, they are "perfectly" written...almost like printed kanji...very clearly written (I wish I could write as well!!)...mei does seem "recent" however, probably cut in the 20th century? The vertical "yasurimei" seem to be scratches from fittings/tsuka/tsuba dragging? (just a thought).

Regards,

George.

[John A Stuart]

The kanji in Chinese hanzi mean the same thing as in Japanese. It has to have context to who wrote it and may have a personal meaning. Really, not worth the bother, but, if it's a puzzle that is driving you buggy, well, keep at it. :lol: John

[george trotter]

No John, not driving me crazy, just trying to help a member...who seems to have disappeared anyway...maybe he's had enough himself :-)

Geo.

[iowa1111]

Have not disappeared-just want to take in what is being said here. I had the opportunity for Stephen to look at it in person. And I truly appreciate his time and lending of his knowledge to me. It is his belief that the blade has been cut down into its present form. I can only agree with him on this as to how he explained it to me. On the kanji, who knows, Like Stephen said “ it is or was a treasure to someone “ It is somewhat disappointing to not know for sure the absolute meaning, or what was trying to be said. But that is why I posted it in the first place. There has been much discussion and that is what this site is for anyway? Right?

[Stephen]

Nice talking to you to Joe, blade IMHO was a great katana at onetime with fubari. some of what i could see , very shallow hamon with what looked like bamboo curtain, maybe masame but could not pull the hada. Not much more we can do Joe sorry we took you around the block but like said thats what were here for.

[Lee Bray]

I had a local friend look at the inscription and after consulting with his wife and father, this was their translation.

He commented that it had a Chinese feel to it.

 

...my take on the translation is as follows:

 

 

片 -slither/slice

 

桐 -tree name from 梧桐树 (name of tree genus -Dryondra? here are some picture samples if you can ID them)

 

http://www.google.com.hk/images?hl=en&s ... =&gs_rfai=

 

家 -family

 

寶 -treasure

 

一 -one

 

心 -heart

 

力 -Strength (here used as an adjective to accentuate the “one heart”)

 

畄/留 -Stay, Remain, Stop, Pause

 

雄 -Hero

 

 

In essence, my interpretation would be:

 

"A slither of (Dryondra) should not be taken lightly and treasured/guarded for generations/the family"

 

"A hero's fervent obligation to stay/remain" (possibly to protect the family treasure)

 

Just in, another translation, and a slightly different slant.

It's traditional Chinese characters. We ran it past a Chinese scholar. It's not really traditional Chinese grammar or use of vocabulary.

 

Best guess:

 

1 "Blade of bronze is a family treasure"

 

2 "All I desire(?) is to serve a hero"

 

Certainly looks like you'll need the original author to clarify the meaning, if indeed it ever had one.

[reinhard]

There may be one or two ways of squeezing some kind of sense out of this "mei", but that's not the point. A poorly executed and unprecedented "signature" like this, mumbling of family treasure, wholehearted strength (and so on) on a messed-up sword like this should leave you with only one conclusion:

A person unfamiliar with the history and tradition of NihonTo tried to increase the value of a sorry blade by adding some pseudo-importance to it.

Unfortunately a poor fraud like this seems to be still working. Be warned, my little Hobbit-friends. Deceptions of a much more clever kind are waiting for you and your purse out there.

 

reinhard

[Stephen]

Unfortunately a poor fraud like this seems to be still working

 

what a sad world you live in

[Lee Bray]

And one in which we all share and live so some civility would be great.

 

Whether the writing on this piece is fraud or whether it is the illiterate ramblings of a smith with too much nostalgia and sake inside him, we'll probably never know.

The fact that the work is not great means we probably never will know.

[Jean]

Just one thing, who ever wrote it was not the smith. It looks much more like the clumsy hand writting of my little niece. I totally agree with Reinhard on the "clumsiness" of the "handwritting" and on the blade quality.

[Stephen]

I totally agree with Reinhard on the "clumsiness" of the "handwriting" .

 

As do I but if there was a big Fraud I think it would have been done better to deceive. the file marks alone are amateurish and not done by a trainded togi, maybe they did not have the yen to have it done right....how would we ever find out???

 

As far as

and on the blade quality.

don't think you can tell being you did not have it in hand, for what he paid for it out of a second hand store that I never stop into as it looks pretty junky its not some big rue to make you all think its a treasure, holding it at arms length one can tell it was a big beefy blade at one time who or why did what is history. maybe this thread should be too.

[george trotter]

Hi Joseph, you must be shocked at the comments flying around here now...please don't be alarmed, it has nothing to do with your sword.

Your sword is not terrible junk, nor is the inscription amateurish scribble. Most of us have tried to help you, without too much success...just be content to accept that we can't be sure of the inscription meaning, we do think the sword may be shortened/altered and the inscription added later...it is certainly more recent than your blade. You just need to buy books and study what you have and compare...and make your own judgement...yours certainly couldn't be worse as that of some of us here.

I don't think you will learn too much more here, unless our Japanese speakers/readers/writers would care to comment on the quality of the inscription itself and the date it was written?

Regards,

George.

[iowa1111]

I would like to thank everyone for the comments and interest. For someone who does not have a strong backround this has been very informative Thanks again, but I do believe that this has been taken as far as it can at this point and there is nothing more that needs to be said.

Thanks again.