Tensho Koshirae and sword

[Henry Wilson]

This appears to be quite nice. A good Muromachi period sword in a Tensho style koshirae with nice fittings . I like the tsuka shape and the lacquered leather tsuka maki.

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/09379.html

 

The kogai is on the wrong side though....

[Jean]

The kogai is on the wrong side though....

 

Why Henry? I cannot really see if there is a slot for the Kogatana on the otherside, but in case of a futatokoromono it is the right side. Now if there is only one slot for a kogai, would it automatically be on the hidden side as for a Kogatana?

 

http://www.nihonto.com/shinkaidaisho.html

[Jean]

Of the last ones posted on Aoi-Art, if I could, Ill go for the Kinju one :

 

https://www.aoi-art.com/auction/en/auct ... 1213703271

[leo]

If it was a clear attribution to Kinju, Jean, it would be a true catch. As far as I can see it is only Kaneshige school which can also mean a student.

Then I prefer a clear attribution to Kaneyuki(eldest son of Kinju) by Juyo paper for the same price(fetched 1.880.000,-JPY). Very pretty blade including koshirae:

 

http://www.l-wise.co.jp/super-jsa/aucti ... l&num=6612

 

Martin

[Jean]

Hi Martin,

 

I respectfully disagree with you, it is Den Kinju and not Kinju Den.

 

Anyway, if it was Kinju Den, it won't be worth this prize :-)

 

You have a very good article by Bob Benson on the topic and furthermore in one of his too seldom posts, Darcy explained in length the meaning of Den.

 

http://www.bushidojapaneseswords.com/Den%20article.pdf

[Henry Wilson]

Going back to the Tensho koshirae and kogai.

 

I think there is no slot on the other side. I believe that convention would dictate that a kozuka would be inserted on the side of the koshirae facing out. Of course there are exceptions especially with very early Muromachi period koshirae, but this piece is not one of those and probably a late Edo revival piece. I can`t help feeling the kogai has been put in so to fill the empty slot. Also the kogai ana on the tsuba is not aline with the kogai as well. All of this makes me think the kogai is on the wrong side.

[Jean]

Hi Henry,

 

Now I understand what you are saying. What I think is that if there is no other slot on the other side, This slot has been made by special order to show a kozuka or kogai the owner was very proud of and wanted to see when on display.

 

Now if we look at the pictures, I have the impression that the tsuba has been misplaced and that the ana corresponding to kogai is the Kozuka one ...

[Henry Wilson]

Actually Jean, I think what i wrote above is wrong. The kogai is on the correct side. The tsuba is the wrong way around which has confused me.

[Jean]

Henry,

 

Now do you know, if only a kogai existed on a Koshirae, would it be placed automatically on this side?

 

I must confess I have not seen enough koshirae to conclude

[Stephen]

Aoi is also known for flipping pix. i have not looked at this one to see if that the case.

[Henry Wilson]

Henry,

 

Now do you know, if only a kogai existed on a Koshirae, would it be placed automatically on this side?

 

I must confess I have not seen enough koshirae to conclude

 

That is an interesting question Jean. It seems that we are used to and familiar with the kogai on the omote and the kozuka on the ura side of the koshirae. The origins of this convention seem to be unknown and from what I have read it emerged during the Edo period.

 

I have gone through my koshirae references and I can find only one koshirae that has only a kogai mounted on the reverse (ura). It is illustrated in "Uchigatana" from the Tokyo National Museum and is a wakizashi of a daisho owned by Torii Mototada (son of Hideyoshi) who lived from around 1567 to 1688. I can`t get any pics up of it but it is number 46 for those who have the book. This probably is not the only existing example but it seems to demonstrate that they are quite rare for whatever reason.

 

The Tosogu no Kigen discusses at length the origins of the kogai. It mentions that before the Muromachi period and the emergence of the uchigatana that there are records of koshigatana and the like being mounted with kogai in the position of where we usually find the kozuka. Also it mentions that the kogai is much older than the kozuka which I read as some people think kogai once existed before kozuka were invented.

 

Concerning the uchigatana and kogai, there are theories that Tosogu no Kigen cites "On swords worn in camps when on campaign, only kogatana are mounted, but in camps at the castles, only kogai are worn and this is on the omote as well as on the ura side"

 

There exists kogai where the motif is orientated in the same way as on a kozuka. For certain designs that have a top and bottom, the orientation of the design on some kogai make them suitable only to be worn on the ura side of the koshirae.

 

So to answer your question, I think that from the Edo period onwards, the kogai would have been placed on the omote (outerside) but this probably was not always the case, especially before the Muromachi period and the advent of the uchigatana.

 

I hope these ramblings answer you question and I also hope that someone with more knowledge than me can add something to this discussion.

[Jean]

Thanks a lot Henry, that is a very good answer to my question

 

To the newbies, in this topic you have much more to learn than in discussing e-bay fakes :

 

You have learned a lot on the way Kogai/Kozuka were placed on a sheath, you have seen the meaning of Den with Bob's article.

 

That is what NMB should be used for.

 

Above all, you must learn to see things and not just look at things.

 

Uncle Jean has spoken

[cisco-san]

Uncle Jean-sama

[estcrh]

Thanks a lot Henry, that is a very good answer to my question

 

To the newbies, in this topic you have much more to learn than in discussing e-bay fakes :

 

You have learned a lot on the way Kogai/Kozuka were placed on a sheath, you have seen the meaning of Den with Bob's article.

 

That is what NMB should be used for.

 

Above all, you must learn to see things and not just look at things.

 

Uncle Jean has spoken

Jean, cant we do both?...we need something to do while waiting for the good stuff to come around....

[Jean]

Eric,

 

Easy, you can ask educationnal questions, take a sword on a commercial site (not e-bay) and ask question about it if there is something strange to your eyes or something unusual you notice.

 

Then Did you know what Den meant and its meaning according the way it is placed?

 

The discussion started here with a Kogai and the way it is placed on a sheath, is it usual to have only a kogai on a sheath and if it happens, is it placed on the right side? Now, do yo know what is a Tensho koshirae, can you define it, and if not why didn't you ask the question ....?

[Pete Klein]

you go Tante Jean...! (lol)

 

Here's a great Tensho style koshirae: http://nihonto.com/fwhigo.html

 

The Tensho style koshirae became very popular in the middle Edo period (most likely as nostalgic samurai looked back at the time of their real sinificance). For whatever reason the style was resurected this set is really nice. I suspect the reason we have many fine kodogu today is due to their being mounted on showpiece koshirae thus preventing them being lost to time.

 

BTW: if you are into the study of fittings the book 'Uchigatana Koshirae' is a must. Large format -- mind blowing.

[estcrh]

Eric,

 

Easy, you can ask educationnal questions, take a sword on a commercial site (not e-bay) and ask question about it if there is something strange to your eyes or something unusual you notice.

 

Then Did you know what Den meant and its meaning according the way it is placed?

 

The discussion started here with a Kogai and the way it is placed on a sheath, is it usual to have only a kogai on a sheath and if it happens, is it placed on the right side? Now, do yo know what is a Tensho koshirae, can you define it, and if not why didn't you ask the question ....?

:lol: Jean, of course this is the kind of info that really expands ones knowledge and I read every word of it...but I have to admit that in between this kind of "research?".... ebay does provide a kind of entertainment ( at least for me) and there is a lot that someone who is not on the same level can learn by asking questions from the more enlightened members here on items that are for sale any were online, I know for a fact that people have been stopped from making bad purchases just from watching the discussions on the fake and low quality items that are sometimes artfully dissected here by the people who have the knowledge to do just that.

[Henry Wilson]

Here are few references that I love when thinking about koshirae

 

"Tosogu no Kigen" by Sasano Masayuki.

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/t ... en/6438122

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/t ... on/6450887

 

"Uchigatana" by the Tokyo National Museum

 

"Kokusai Tosogu Kai 2005 International Convention and Exhibition Supplement" by Richard K George

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/k ... nt/1648110

 

All the above texts have in depth info on koshirae which sheds light on an area of tosogu and nihonto that is surprising over looked.

[Henry Wilson]

you go Tante Jean...! (lol)

 

Here's a great Tensho style koshirae: http://nihonto.com/fwhigo.html

 

 

Hi Pete

 

Is that not a Higo style?

[paulb]

Hi Henry,

Coming in late and lacking much knowledge on fittings, but I think the example Pete posted would be described as having Higo fittings but in Tensho style. I would be interested in others definitions but my understanding of Tensho style is:

1. Wasted Tsuka with black lacquered same under leather binding. Binding can be leather, lacquered or not, or doeskin. horn kashira

2. Conservative and relatively plain fittings

3. Black lacquered saya.

Therefore the one shown on Freds site (Petes post) fits the bill.

I have lusted after this koshirae for a long time, I think it is a beautiful set.

Regards

Paul

[Henry Wilson]

Hi Paul

 

When you say wasted, do you mean waste or waist? Wasted to me suggests wasting away to nothing. But it could mean an hourglass shape.

 

Here is an extremely well written and informative article (with a great kanji lesson thrown in) by Guido Schiller and S. Alexander Takeuchi, Ph.D. I hope they don`t mind me linking it here.

 

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/ja ... rticle.htm

 

I have taken the liberty to copy and paste a few extracts from the article which I think says it all and to provide other definitions as requested by Paul.

 

Tensho Koshirae

The Momoyama period 桃山時代 (1568 ~ 1598 AD) is well known for its flamboyant Koshirae 拵 design with light red lacquered Saya 鞘 and Kanagu 金具 in gold, called Momoyama Koshirae 桃山拵. Those flashy mountings, however, were counterbalanced by Tenshô-Koshirae 天正拵 (in the era of Tenshô 天正, 1573 ~ 1586 AD) with black Saya 鞘 and Same 鮫, and a tapered Tsuka 柄 in so called hourglass shape with leather binding crossed over a Kashira 頭 made of plain horn.

 

Higo Koshirae

Typical characteristics of Higo-Koshirae 肥後拵 include round Kashira 頭 and Kojiri 鐺; the Same 鮫 that is often black; and the Saya 鞘 in Samenuri 鮫塗, where the "valleys" in the Same 鮫 filled with lacquer, and the "mountains" smoothed and polished flush. Also, the Tsuka 柄 often had a leather wrapping. This type of Koshirae 拵 was later copied as Edo-Higo-Koshirae 江戸肥後拵, but mostly with simpler Saya 鞘 and natural colored Same 鮫.

 

Here is an example an Edo-Higo-Koshirae as mentioned above.

 

http://www.yamabushiantiques.com/KOSHIRAE16.htm

[paulb]

Hi Henry,

Combination of early posting (6am) and inability to spell which I doubt will ever improve much can cause confusion. I meant hour glass shaped.

Thank you for posting th definitions. I see why you would consider Pete's example Higo based predominently on the saya. To me it looks like a combination of the two and works very well.

Thanks again for the information

Regards

Paul

[paulb]

At risk of boring some longer serving members I posted images some 6 or 7 years ago of a project I had just finished . I had a blade in Shirasaya papered to O-Kanemichi (Daido) and decided I wanted to put together a koshirae for it. The blade dates from around 1580 and is quiet and conservative in form so I thought a Tensho Koshirae would best suit it. I spent several years sourcing the tsuba, menuki and fuchi, all date from around this period (the tsuba maybe 50 years later). The tsuka was made and bound by Michael Hicks in the UK. he also commissioned the saya, tsunagi and lacquer work locally. Both craftsmen were trained in the UK and carry out restoration work for museums in the UK and Japan.

I was very pleased with the end result. I have to say that this style of mounting is hifgh on my list of favourites.

regards

Paul

[Jean]

Congrats Paul, I know (taking into consideration your collection level) what represents this sword for you and you deserves to have achieved such a project for this blade

[Henry Wilson]

Lovely Paul. Very nice. A great example of Tensho koshirae. Tensho-tastic in other words!!!

[paulb]

Thank you gentlemen,

I am glad you like the end result.

My next project, some way in the future, is to put together an Ito-no-maki Koshirae for another piece. regretably suitable fittings are scarce and other things keep getting in the way. However one day who knows!

thanks again

Best Regards

Paul

[Jean]

Reviving this old thread to ask a few questions:

 

- was the tsuka always waisted (it looks like)?

- what kind of menuki were used or rather were they any special themes?

- was the kashira always in horn or could have it been in iron?

- tsuka mae: is lacquered leather binding (tsuka ito) found in tensho Koshirae?

[rkg]

Jean, that's kind of how the style is defined - a bit more refined than their muromachi period predecessors (see attached).

 

Best,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

 

was the tsuka always waisted (it looks like)?

 

No.

 

was the kashira always in horn or could have it been in iron?

 

I have seen one made of copper and anther mad of shakudo .

 

tsuka mae: is lacquered leather binding (tsuka ito) found in tensho Koshirae?

 

You can find leather on other style of koshirae and find silk on Tensho Koshirae.

[Jean]

Thanks Richard,

 

is the picture showing a Tensho tsuka?

 

I have asked this question on the Samurai sword forum and it seems that your example is known as Katate Maki and is not Tensho Koshirae according to Kensen sama, well known Japanese craftsman.

 

http://www.thejapanesesword.com/forum/v ... f=29&t=278

 

When asking about a leather lacquered ito, I was rather thinking to traditional diamond tied tsuka ito

 

The examples shown by Kensen sama are all waisted with a horn Kashira.

 

The example in your picture : the tsuka is not waisted, the kashira is not horn but looks rather iron.

 

Is there really any definition of a Tensho koshirae? I have Markus book on koshirae but here again, the Tensho koshirae chapter is too short:

 

"Black lacquered saya, dark metal or horn fittings, black same and leather hilt wrapping. The hilt in itself was concave on both sides, a shape that is called "ryugo". the end of the hilt wrapping was often knotted in the makikake style (over the kashira).

 

I am going to state a few points on Tensho koshirae as affirmation, tell me if I am wrong and show me counter examples if any some kind of true/false quizz

 

In Tensho koshirae:

 

- Tsuka is always waisted

- kashira is always horn

- tsuka ito is tied in diamond shape, it is leather/deer skin and laced over the kashira.

- no special theme for menuki.

 

BTW, I have of course googled Tensho Koshirae and what I have found in some websites seems very far from what is known about Tensho tsuka ito tying style.

 

Edit to add, I have seen Jacques answers but it is not satisfying as it seems there is always exception and a er kashira seems really to be one. I voluntarily forget what is seen as "modern repro" on websites, the ideal should be to have examples of papered Tensho Koshirae.