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New Polisher Experience


SwordGuyJoe

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I can't say with authority if more material is removed absolutely as I can't recall if hadori finishing takes off from where sashikomi ends or (and this is what I think I remember) hadori starts a step or two before the finishing of sashikomi and proceeds from there.

 

In either case, you might be talking micrograms of material removed. Definitely inconsequential in relation to what is removed in the shita-ji steps.

 

It is also inconsequential when compared to the amount of material that needs to be removed to repair an amateur polish job....

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Dear Chris et al.

Eric H writes ( quoting G. Schiller ): " I dare to say that in 9 out of 10 swords Hadori will help to appreciate the finer details of the sword. This is also the point where the Togishi changes from a mere craftsman to an artist who "interprets" a certain sword, much like a conductor of classical music. Why, then, prefer some collectors, especially non-Japanese, Sashikomi? "

 

Probably because when I look at a sword, .... I consider the Swordsmith to have been the ARTIST . If I like the music, ... I do not need nor want a CONDUCTOR re-aranging the composition to his liking be he Japanese or otherwise !

 

Eric H writes regarding the swords sent from Australia to Japan for polish : " All the swords on display in the Art Gallery of New South Wales are in Sashikomi Polish. The polisher is Mukansa level and the very best quality polish available. He has been asked not to do Hadori. This is our preference. See the swords at... viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4666

written by Chishiki "

 

It would seem that outside Japan, .... many of us prefer Sashikomi over Hadori. I guess our Autralian cousins are simply not advanced enough in the field to appreciate the finer qualities of Hadori.

 

George wrote : " Who says what is best...and what IS best?...who decides who is "right"? "

 

According to Chris, .... Obviously only the Japanese have the correct and best way of appreciating a sword in polish. They obviously have different eyes ... when it comes to sword viewing.

 

Chris writes : " After seeing many first rate examples and being taught how to look at the blades correctly, I came to agree that hadori is preferable in most cases.... "

 

I never had any problem seeing the hamon, the grain, the hataraki in a properly polished Sashikomi, .... but all of a sudden because the Japanese polisher has suddenly become an " artist/conductor " instead of a craftsman, .... I'm to look at his interpretation of what I should see. Hmm .... interesting transition there, .... perhaps this justifies his charging $ 150.00 or more an inch or centemeter for his interpretation ( I forget which ).

 

Why don't you guys who suddenly prefer Hadori over Sashikomo own up to the fact that the main reason is that the Japanese told you, and that you accept whatever the NBTHK and the current Japanese fashion dictates. If I suddenly need Hadori eyeglasses to see what was obvious with Sahikomi, .... then I would suggest that Hadori is a retrostep in this field and most certainly not an advancement. With respect to all I will no further argue my point, .... but feel a great weight off my chest by putting forth my perspective on this never to end debate. ....... Ron Watson

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Hi Chris, I

 

I'm curious, you said that westerners don't know how to view swords properly (can't seem to find the exact quote), can you please elaborate on that?

 

Thanks.

 

 

I said that many (not all) do not seem to know how to properly view a sword. When people say that hadori hides the detail in the hamon it means they are not looking at the blade properly because when held at eye level and pointed at a light at the appropriate angle, the hamon will light up like a neon light and all the detail is plain to see. I have seen very few people hold a blade this way to inspect it. It is the best way to see the detail.....it also allows one to play the bulb up and down the blade to check the quality of the foundation polish. If the foundation is well done the image of the bulb will remain the same size and shape as it moves up and down the blade. If it undulates and changes shapes back and forth it means the blade has waves in the surface and the polish is poor.

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Why don't you guys who suddenly prefer Hadori over Sashikomo own up to the fact that the main reason is that the Japanese told you, and that you accept whatever the NBTHK and the current Japanese fashion dictates. If I suddenly need Hadori eyeglasses to see what was obvious with Sahikomi, .... then I would suggest that Hadori is a retrostep in this field and most certainly not an advancement. With respect to all I will no further argue my point, .... but feel a great weight off my chest by putting forth my perspective on this never to end debate. ....... Ron Watson

 

Since these are Japanese swords, and it is their history, culture, and craft, I do defer to them. Anything otherwise would be like them telling the Canadians how to play hockey....

 

When it come to which polishing style I prefer, I made up my own mind based on what I saw. For me, it really has nothing to do the NBTHK and fashion....I think the fact that I started collecting gendaito 20 years ago is proof enough of that....

 

All polishing is an interpretive process and the polisher ultimately has a large influence on the appearance of the blade, whether sashikomi or kesho shiage. There is no way around that. Just because a blade is finished in sashikomi does not mean you are in some way seeing the "real", "pure" or "true" blade. You are simply seeing that polisher's version.

 

In any case, we have both stated our views, made our points, and hopefully caused some neurons to fire....I'm glad we could relieve you of a great weight....always feels good to express one's self....

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I am enjoying this thread...to think that it began with a post about a sword in sashikomi being repolished in hadori...who would have thought we would have come this far? On some points raised...can I just say that rather than collectors "of my sashikomi ilk" being classified as the "traditionalists' (with the implication of mindless rigidity), we should perhaps be classified as "historicalists" (with the implication of "keeping things to their era")...and that includes in most cases, the polish and fittings in which they are found...even if gunto specifications.

Chris, just a point of interest here regarding hadori/sashikomi in gendaito.

You collect gendaito and have seen many of these in Japan and elsewhere. In your years of in-hand viewing of all those lovely RJT blades etc can you guesstimate for us how many (still in original WWII period polish) were hadori and how many were sashikomi? In my experience (almost entirely outside of Japan), the ratio would be about 99% sashikomi and 1% hadori. I realise it must be a bit more than that in terms of hadori, but I would be interested in your observations. Also, do you keep a sword in original sashikomi polish if possible? and if it must be re-polished, do you stay with the original polish style, or do you prefer to make them hadori?

 

Also, I notice modern collectors are inclined to repolish blades that in my opinion, should certainly be kept with the very passable original polish they still have. From my own observations over the last 40 years, it seems that the Japanese collectors/museums/swordshops have no qualms about re-polishing blades of ALL eras in hadori...this seems to be against both "traditionalism" and "historicalism". What I don't know for sure is whether these blades I've viewed needed re-polish or if it was done to "keep up with the times". Any comments?

Regards,

George.

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This thread has been most enjoyable indeed. Captivating. It's at the heart of what I intuited about Nihonto from my earliest years of collecting. I'll make a statement about Gendaito and polish that might get me a broadside, but that's why we are all here...

 

Based on observation I've come to believe there are THREE polishes - "easy" sashikomi, hadori, and "hard" sashikomi (as in taking longer and more difficult to do). WW2 era Gendaito have a kind of sashikomi that is "easy" to do (read quicker) and shows the hamon clearly, but leaves the hada more difficult to "see". The swords do look good at first blush, but leave one with a "lacking" feeling because the hada is not so easy to discern. For these reasons I disagree with my dear and esteemed friend George Trotter and would polish such a WW2 era Gendaito. I have one such a sword that I'll run past George when we get together in a few months (we are at opposite ends of Australia!) before I send it for polish.

 

Another issue is that Edo period blades of quality that reach us in good condition often have a "worn out" polish such that they look similar to the WW2 era "easy" sashikomi described above. The use of uchiko "wears out" the rendition of hada, but leaves the hamon outstandingly brilliant. A polisher visiting Australia many years ago looked at a Shinshinto katana a friend of mine has that is in excellent condition with everything visible, even the hada. It did not come anywhere near my criteria for "worn out" polish. Yet, the polisher looked at and said "It is beginning to dull. I would start on the second stone". Which underscores Chris Bowen's point of leaving it to the expertise of the togishi. The grandfather of this particular togishi was taught by the Hon'ami of the day - and he thought this sword should be polished again.

 

I'm not sure these comments have been helpful, based as they are on a very "small sample" database, which cannot begin to compare with Chris Bowen's very extensive empirical database. So I suppose they might come under the heading of "BaZZa's Random Rambles"...

 

Regards,

BaZZa.

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I agree with Bazza, about the "easy" style of sashikomi found on a lot of Genaito. I have seen quite a few, that most people pass over as "Muji". The hamon is quite visible and so is the Hatoraki contained there in, though visisble hada is lacking. I have now discovered a way of asessing the hada in these blades and though I can't make out distinct hada, I feel that I am able to tell if hada is there. Then it comes down to whether or not one wants to invest the time and money, to have these blades polished.

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Dear Bazza,

 

could you give examoles of "easy" sashikomi, hadori and "hard" sashikomi polishs (pictures).

I am interested to study the differences via comparing the three with each other.

 

@ Joe: Thanks for opening such an interesting thread!

 

Cheers,

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Dear Robert,

 

I'm sorry, but it's not possible in my life at present to put up pictures as I've not made any, but Chris Bowen (I think?) hinted at the difference in one of his posts. I'll think about this and re-visit the topic later and see if I can give a word picture.

 

Regards,

BaZZa.

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I will try to answer a few of the questions pointing in my direction as best I can before I have to run to work on my house (holidays are over!)...

 

Regarding gunto and their polishing, we know that for the most part they were given very poor polishes. I think Fujishiro Matsuo sensei, who worked in a shop where Yasukuni-to were polished, remarked that it took one day to polish a sword (normally at least a few weeks!). The people polishing were not exactly fully trained professionals. I have seen pictures of the polishing "lines". This is one area where woman were employed as well....

 

While I have seen blades with decent polishes, they are in the minority. With the demands of war, expediency was to be expected.

 

As one poster above has astutely observed, most were indeed given what may best be called a "gunto polish": hada obscured, hamon covered with an artificial hadori, etc. In effect, they are shiny and sharp. All that was needed.

 

Many are in what might be called a crude sashikomi, but I have also seen many with the "painted on hadori" look. Also, when cleaned repeatedly, what was once a hadori of some sort can be removed and you end up with something that almost looks like sashikomi....

 

I couldn't really give any reliable percentages on how many were hadori, how many sashikomi. It is much easier to say how many were poorly done-nearly all.

 

And thus we have the basis for an argument against George's "historicalist" viewpoint wherein everything should be left as is or redone in period polish....The "historicalist" perspective is that of the literal archaeologist-leave everything as found....Nihon-to are not bones, they are art. Art needs conservation and preservation using the best techniques available at the time.

 

Without proper polishing nearly all the WWII era blades would be lost and forgotten. No doubt most probably should be, but those by the better smiths would never have captured the attention and earned the respect of preservationists without proper polishing. It is only through a proper polish that the quality of the blade becomes apparent and the workmanship can be appreciated.

 

Now, George asked me what I do with my blades. Simple: I give them the quality polish they deserve. Some have been done in sashikomi but most in hadori. I want the quality of the quench, the forging of the steel, and the talent of the smith to be visible to all who can appreciate the beauty created when man, earth, fire, and water mingle. The smiths who spent years in toil perfecting their craft deserve nothing less than to have their skills properly displayed.

 

Enough for now. Time to get to work....Hope this answers some questions...

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It is only through a proper polish that the quality of the blade becomes apparent and the workmanship can be appreciated.

Exactly...I feel, that in this discussion, just the "Restorer" of the beauty of the Japanese sword, namely the Togishi, this highly skilled and expert craftsman has been neglected. There exists a video showing Mukansa Togishi Usuki Yoshihiko...here some of his comments and thoughts...

 

My master says that the job of a togishi is to bring out the light particular to the sword.

 

Ten years of apprenticeship and fifteen years since I have been of my own.

 

Having worked for 25-years, it was fine while I was an apprentice, but in the fifteen years on my own, there‘s been probably only once that I was satisfied.

 

My goal is to come close to the work by my master, and the other is to sharpen exactly as I imagined it.

 

It is difficult to explain, but before I sharpen a sword that I have taken in, I get a visual image.

 

This is a sword from which period, and it doesn't have a name, it would be appraised first, but then I get an image in my mind of how to finish the sword.

 

I work toward that image, but of course more often that it does not go exactly the image.

 

This is strictly a battle with myself, and it is not something that is understandable by the customers or other people.

 

It is an object that has reached near perfection. That is where the beauty lies.

 

That is the spiritual culture. There are Japanese people that value this kind of brightness.

 

And to speak in extremes, I wanted to create an item that when viewed, would hold a person in awe of this kind of brightness.

 

That is the NIHONTO.

 

Eric

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The above comments are certainly helpful to the discussion. Firstly, if I may say so...I agree almost entirely with Chris' historic background, but I do wince a bit about keeping a sword "as is" like an artefact or dug up bone...rather, I'd like to think I believe in preservation "as is" if possible, or in historically sympathetic restoration/conservation if necessary...and I appreciate Eric's words for the insight into the striving for perfection of the sword that is the true spirit of the togishi.

 

About the gunto polishing Chris, I don't in any way include the gunto/showato "assembly line" polishing in this discussion...I am talking about high quality gendaito such as Exhibition Seat Winners, Denshujo, Yasukuni, RJT smiths etc. I haven't heard the story about polishing a Yasukuni-to in one day, and I suppose time would be more precious then compared with the leisurely times of today...but one day? start to finish?whew! Despite the Yasukuni-to polishing you mention, those I have seen were in very creditable polish. RJT and other blades I have examined certainly seemed high quality polish to me also...I can't see any problems with the original polish...some perhaps "dulled down" after several decades as you say? From what I observed in these blades, I am confident that they were polished to a high standard...in fact, I have read the actual specifications for the standard of polishing of RJT swords and I can tell you, they are STRINGENT. Instructions are given about the ji-hada being "clearly apparent", the quality of the lines, the amount of niku, hamaguri-ba, mune, shinogi-ji surfaces to be symmetrical, parallel, about hamon line nugui, ko-shinogi/matsuba-kado kasane, parallel lines of ura/omote and the work of the migaki-bo. Dimensions of all were to be as the specifications demanded and not less and the polish was to be critically examined by a qualified togishi before acceptence....all of those I have handled come at least to that standard, so standards of polish in these type of sword was high. I mention these points because I would not want members to think that "gunto" polish applied to all WWII era swords, or that quality was all poor.

As to restoring such a sword to preserve it for future generations and to allow it to be truly appreciated, I have no problems with repolish, but here we come to personal choice...mine is sashikomi, which is also IMHO "appropriate" to the sword, purpose and era. As I only collect WWII era gendaito now, I am not at all inclined towards hadori, but were one to be in hadori (as one of mine is), and need restoration, I would re-polish in hadori...as it would also be historically correct for the blade...but not otherwise.

Regards,

George.

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Great discussion and to throw a little wrench here is a katana with a "special" Sashikomi polish I saw for a Japanese collector who wanted this style - check out the mune and shinojigi - not burnished so the activity is all across the entire blade ;)

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About the gunto polishing Chris, I don't in any way include the gunto/showato "assembly line" polishing in this discussion...I am talking about high quality gendaito such as Exhibition Seat Winners, Denshujo, Yasukuni, RJT smiths etc.

 

I have never seen a high quality polish on a blade made for military service, Yasukuni, RJT, Denshujo, or otherwise. At best, they are perfunctory.

 

I have spoken to a RJT who told me they had a small "factory" set up next to his forge for polishing. There were several people there, including women, who were not professional togishi. He would make the blades, the shinsa'in from the Army would come by about once a month and inspect/star stamp his blades. They would then go to the polishing "factory". Something like 15-20 blades a month. That is 2 days or so per blade. You can not achieve the quality with amateurs and 2 days per blade....

 

in fact, I have read the actual specifications for the standard of polishing of RJT swords and I can tell you, they are STRINGENT.

 

The written standards may be stringent but in practice, the polishes are poor. They get poorer the later in the war you look. They had more important things to worry about than the quality of the polishes. See tatemae/honne.....

 

 

I mention these points because I would not want members to think that "gunto" polish applied to all WWII era swords, or that quality was all poor.

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I believe it is safe to say that overall, the polishes seen on most WWII gunto, whether Yasukuni-to, RJT, Denshujo, or otherwise, are mediocre at best when compared to what first class togishi are capable of today.

 

I have seen some good polishes on special order blades, blades made for the yearly contest, and the like...

 

I can't begin to tell you how many times I have seen a muji gunto with cheap hadori by a relatively unknown smith completely change after a quality polish. I remember specifically a blade by Ishido Teruhide. We have all seen many of these. Most look like your typical gunto and hardly need a second look. A friend had one polished just for fun and it turned out to have just beautiful jigane with a really active ha. I was amazed.....

 

A poor polish kills a sword....

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"A poor polish kills a sword....

 

Hi Chris, I appreciate your enthusiasm for this subject it is always interesting to hear about collectors and dealers likes/dislikes. I would however say that your statement above might be a bit terse, a poor polish doesn't always end up as a dead sword, for the most part it is usually just a sword with a bad polish. We see blades with old bad polishes (pre WW2) that are not dead, heck we even see fresh polishes from Japan that are bad polishes - they just need a new good polish, or perhaps can even be enjoyed by a knowledgeable collector the way it is, they can see through the bad to the good. I am seeing many generalizations in this thread, and as usual the new collectors on here should be taking some of this with a grain of salt as most of it is merely personal likes/dislikes and "trends" that may be dictated by more that just what is best for the sword.

 

At your level of collecting (mainly newer swords?) I am sure you know exactly what you are looking for (while always expanding your likes/dislikes), I am also sure that you are able to see the good in a sword with a bad polish - the potential it you will, at least I hope so.

 

Regards,

 

Louis

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Perhaps I should have said "a bad polish CAN kill a sword". Certainly there are degrees of "bad" and as you note, one can still see something in many cases...

 

But look at all the WWII gunto that have been bad mouthed for decades. In many cases, these swords have been tossed into the ditch, literally and figuratively, because they looked like junk. A proper polish later and you have a completely different animal.

 

I remember showing Yoshikawa Kentaro sensei a WWII blade by Tsukamoto Okimasa in WWII polish. He said, "Oh, gunto" and handed it back to me. In other words, "oh, piece of junk". I had it polished, it passed Hozon shinsa (with star stamp), and showed it to him again. This time he actually spent some time looking at it and commented on how nice the activity was in the hamon. He called over another member who has a yushu rated Okimasa and had him look at it. They both commented on how skilled he was, etc. Clearly, with the proper polish, it became a blade of interest. In its war era polish, it was dead....

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I can see from these last few posts that this matter really does seem to come down to preferences. Those who look for certain features in a finished polish and those who look for a different set. I think it must just mean different goals, not necessarily different "qualities" of polishing. I like what I like in sashikomi and for me, seeing such a sword later in hadori "diminishes" the enjoyment of the blade features for me...I can't change this part of my appreciation of Japanese swords. However, I am happy to accommodate the preferences of others...I no longer classify them as "depraved"...just different. I really enjoy your thoughts on this topic Chris and all...very interesting.

DR Brian raises a good point too...one which may throw a spanner in the works as regards "tradition"...why, if hadori illustrates the smith's skill so well, are the shinogi ji etc still burnished? Surely, the desire to see his skill to the greatest effect should eliminate the "closing" of the window that is burnishing?...or is burnishing still done because it is traditional?...just a thought.

Lots of fun,

Regards,

George.

PS I think you should write up that book with all these tidbits of info from the old WWII tosho and togishi...fascinating stuff Chris.

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I like what I like in sashikomi and for me, seeing such a sword later in hadori "diminishes" the enjoyment of the blade features for me...

 

A good polish is a good polish-Sashikomi or hadori, it comes down to personal preference...Enjoy what you like- that is what it is all about....

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A nie-deki blade with an abundance of Hataraki polished Hadori-shiage. Regrettably I was not able to make pics of the fine details that show the beauty of this blade. This is the sword I mentioned previously that got best polish. The other was a Shodai Tadayoshi.

 

Eric

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