New Polisher Experience

[SwordGuyJoe]

All,

I have asked folks for opinions on a polisher in a post from a few weeks ago (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7249). I received some good responses, so I figured I would give him a try. I have sent him two blades I have discussed on this forum - a Shinto Kawachi no Kami Nagakuni (viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6951) and a gendai blade (viewtopic.php?f=50&t=7168 and viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7261). I thought it may be fun (or tragic) to show you all the progress as it comes and share my final thoughts. I have found Eric to be extremely helpful, learned, and most of all patient with my dumb questions. While I will let his craftsmanship speak for itself, but I am very excited to see the finished products. He has completed my 'window' on the Nagakuni and I attach a before picture and the four 'after' pictures below. There are also some before pics on the Nagakuni post I pasted above.

 

Keep in mind - neither of these blades risk being ranked as Juyo, so if you are offended that I didn't seek out a juyo polish I respectfully understand, but am still very comfortable with the decision I made.

 

Before:

 

 

After:

 

 

 

[jason_mazzy]

Wonderful. What a transformation. I am happy for you.

[estcrh]

Joe, how long did your polish take from start to finish.

[machinist]

Some of those pics are gonna make nice wallpapers :D :D

[SwordGuyJoe]

Joe, how long did your polish take from start to finish.

 

Neither blade is completed yet. This is the first group of photos that I received for one of the two blades Eric is working on for me. The second, a gendai blade by Yasumoto Norimitsu, is being worked this weekend and I should be able to show the group the progress early next week. While the Shinto Nagakuni blade is far more valuable, the Norimitsu is just going to be a knock out. I can't wait to see and share it with you.

 

Another great word of recommendation I will say to support Eric is that he seems truly passionate about what he does. I actually think he as excited as I am. Here are a couple 'before pics of the Norimitsu' and I'll share some after pics when I have them.

 

Thank you for your kind words.

 

 

 

 

[raven2]

Nice job. Great improvement. The blades are going to look great after they are done.

[Curgan]

Well, it seems that there are still to be found diamonds in the mud...

[Brian]

I note that most comments are from relative NMB (or Nihonto?) newcommers?

I must say..that is a heck of a lot of "kesho" there.

 

Brian

 

Edit to add: Joe...that aint no "window."

You don't go the whole hog including hadori/kesho and what appears to be nugui when doing just a window. I expect that whole side is completed that way

[Grey Doffin]

Let me add, for the benefit of newcomers and maybe a few of the others, that it isn't only how shiny the sword ends up looking that matters. A proper polish removes enough of the blade to leave it with the correct for it's age and school geometry, and not an ounce more. The color of the steel has to be right, the grain has to present itself properly, and all the activity in the hamon needs to be visible. If there is going to be a defect surfacing the polisher needs to know what to do about it. And dozens other of details need to be seen to.

Saying nothing about the polish or polisher in question (I don't know who Eric is), but speaking of polish in general, if you are going to have a sword polished make very certain that the polisher has proper training.

Grey

[SwordGuyJoe]

Edit to add: Joe...that aint no "window."

 

Yeah, this isn't a window. He did some work and provided me a few photos of the progress. I am really pleased with the milky kesho finish.

 

...Grey's post...

I agree with everything that you are saying. Anytime you try a new polisher, you incur a pretty significant risk. It is for this risk that I mentioned that neither of these swords are at risk of being ranked juyo any time soon, but needing of a polish. If they were, regardless of the references, I wouldn't have risked it.

 

You are one of the many class acts here and I know you are not saying anything about the polish or polisher and appreciate the public service announcement - it is very needed. I assure you and others, this decision wasn't made lightly and was after careful conversation, research, and consideration. I am posting my experience so the rest of the board can share in my experience with a relatively unknown polisher.

 

I do not suggest anyone make a decision based solely on what I have posted or will post, but take a lot of time, talk with people and make the best informed decision possible. Thanks again Grey

[David Flynn]

All I can say is, that to me the Hadori looks way to thick and if hiding the hataraki well........

[SwordGuyJoe]

Thank you David, I appreciate your opinion. It will be interesting to see the work completed and using better photos. When I view the original high resolution photos, you can still detect the nie and nioi in the rolling gunome hamon, so the hataraki hasn't been hidden with the hadori. This is my fault by posting small format photos. I am looking forward to seeing this in hand. Thank you again David.

[Jean]

Once again, it will be very difficult to say anything without holding the blade, in fact it is impossibele. I have seen Japanese Hadori polish hide the hataraki, the only way to see them was to look at the hamon with the slightest possible angle. A midare hamon looked very much Mino with togari ...

[Stephen]

Not all togi make the same size windows, Joe in the latter photos one can see where the window ends. I think he used the full length of the the stone. I'm not a fan of Hadori but done right it can be brilliant.

[jason_mazzy]

Any updated pictures?

[cabowen]

It is for this risk that I mentioned that neither of these swords are at risk of being ranked juyo any time soon, but needing of a polish. If they were, regardless of the references, I wouldn't have risked it.

 

It isn't only Juyo level swords that deserve a professional polish. Anything of Hozon or better is surely worthy of the proper care and restoration. And who is to say what might not be Juyo today won't be in 50 or 100 years?

 

Using an amateur for anything other than very low end, tired, severely flawed, saiha, or non-traditional blades, disrespects the blade and those that have cared for it through history. It is destructive, rather than preservative; sometimes it is indeed better to do nothing.

 

I don't wish to sound harsh, but it is simply unfathomable why people who claim to cherish and respect the cultural, historical, and artistic heritage embodied in these ever dwindling swords continue to let them be defaced by amateurs, despite non-stop warnings by people with long and substantial experience in the field...

 

These swords sure seem worthy of better than they got....the hadori work alone is... never mind.....it is a losing battle....Ugh.....

[SwordGuyJoe]

Chris,

Sincerely appreciate and understand your opinion. I haven't a bad thing to say about you nor your comments. Thank you very much.

[Jean]

Chris,

 

I agree with you, from my part I have always selected blades already professionaly polished even at hozon level, probably because I am not the gambling type. The only bet I took was an unpolished NTHK Shinteisho Kanetsune Kodai Muromachi that I had polished but which had two hagire.

 

If you decide to have a blade polish, whatever the blade, it has to be done by a professional. All works on Nihonto, Tosogu, kodogu are to be made by professionals in Nihonto field.

 

However, upto oneself to search for a "chu" Togishi or a "sai jo" Togishi, but no amateur please.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hi Chris,

 

These swords sure seem worthy of better than they got....the hadori work alone is... never mind.....it is a losing battle....Ugh.....

 

It is simply amazing how collectors will spend good money on amateur polishing, but they won't spend a bit more on a professional polish. It just doesn't make any sense. When all is said and done the sword owner will still have no idea of what a good polish looks like and chances are the sword cannot be kantei'd correctly, because the sword is not finished properly, which defeats the entire purpose of polishing. Then, collectors complain when the shinsa team comes back with a Bungo or Fuyuhiro paper (no disrespect to Bungo or Fuyuhiro, its just that they are an easy - safe call, as they worked in almost all traditions), besides, what else are the judges supposed to do when they are unable to see any true defining characteristics. And, when it comes time to sell the sword with an amateur polish, don't expect to recover the full cost of that polish. Also, keep in mind that by keeping the amateur polisher in business, it only becomes a matter of time until someone unaware sends in a darn good (mumei) sword with perhaps only one good polish remaining in the steel, oops! kiss it goodbye!

[cabowen]

Chris,

 

I agree with you, from my part I have always selected blades already professionaly polished even at hozon level, probably because I am not the gambling type. The only bet I took was an unpolished NTHK Shinteisho Kanetsune Kodai Muromachi that I had polished but which had two hagire.

 

If you decide to have a blade polish, whatever the blade, it has to be done by a professional. All works on Nihonto, Tosogu, kodogu are to be made by professionals in Nihonto field.

 

However, upto oneself to search for a "chu" Togishi or a "sai jo" Togishi, but no amateur please.

 

How tiring it is to constantly have to preach about the evils of amateurs....Destroying a culture, one blade at a time....I used to think it was ignorance, then simply penny-pinching. Now I am leaning towards hubris....I wish someone could explain it to me...

You are absolutely correct in that there are different levels of polishers, even among the professional ranks, and one generally uses the appropriate polisher for the blade.

[Jean]

You are absolutely correct in that there are different levels of polishers, even among the professional ranks, and one generally uses the appropriate polisher for the blade.

 

 

but unfortunatelly, Chris, it will take a newbie years, before deciding the level of professional polishing needed, which means years before knowing quality (In Nihonto/polishing/art)

[cabowen]

Hi Chris,

 

These swords sure seem worthy of better than they got....the hadori work alone is... never mind.....it is a losing battle....Ugh.....

 

It is simply amazing how collectors will spend good money on amateur polishing, but they won't spend a bit more on a professional polish. It just doesn't make any sense. When all is said and done the sword owner will still have no idea of what a good polish looks like, and chances are the sword cannot be kantei'd correctly because the sword is not finished properly, which defeats the entire purpose of polishing. Then, collectors complain when the shinsa team comes back with a Bungo or Fuyuhiro paper (no disrespect to Bungo or Fuyuhiro, its just that they are an easy - safe call, as they worked in almost all traditions), besides, what else are the judges supposed to do when they are unable to see defining characteristics. And, when it comes time to sell the sword with an amateur polish, don't expect to recover the full cost of that polish. Also, keep in mind that by keeping the amateur polisher in business, it only becomes a matter of time until someone unaware sends in a darn good (mumei) sword with perhaps only one good polish left in the steel, oops! kiss it goodbye!

 

So true.....There is no good reason when one possess all the facts. I know the amateur polisher industry in the West drives many of the shinsa people, craftsman, and collectors in Japan that I know into nearly stroking out, especially when they see the "work" being done. They can't understand it, and neither can I....

[cabowen]

You are absolutely correct in that there are different levels of polishers, even among the professional ranks, and one generally uses the appropriate polisher for the blade.

 

 

but unfortunatelly, Chris, it will take a newbie years, before deciding the level of professional polishing needed, which means years before knowing quality (In Nihonto/polishing/art)

 

There are two kinds of newbies: those that seek out the knowledge of those with experience and follow it and those that don't.....

[SwordGuyJoe]

Again, gentlemen, thank you for your opinion. You knowledge and the help you have all provided me in the couple years I have been on the NMB has been priceless. I am listening whether you believe me or not. Maybe I made a mistake, maybe I didn't. If I did, then I will learn from that mistake and avoid making it again.

 

It's interesting to wonder the reaction a person received when utilizing a, at the time new polisher, but currently an acceptable one. I wonder if it would be similar to the lambasting that I am receiving now. Either way, I'll take my lumps as your opinions do mean a great deal to me. I mean no sarcasm or disrespect when I say thank you very much.

[cabowen]

If I did, then I will learn from that mistake and avoid making it again.

 

It is always good to learn from one's mistakes, though better to learn from those of others.....

 

It's interesting to wonder the reaction a person received when utilizing a, at the time new polisher, but currently an acceptable one.

 

There is no reaction when using a professional as they are fully trained before they start accepting work as an independent craftsman. No one gives them top class blades until they start making a name for themselves but one doesn't have to worry about them pooching a blade either. Most I have talked to will defer to a senior polisher, usually their teacher, if something significant comes in....

 

By the way, outside of two Japanese trained polishers in the US, with one of these in Hawaii, the other in San Fransisco, there are no currently acceptable polishers in the US. That makes it rather simple.....

[SwordGuyJoe]

though better to learn from those of others.....

 

Agreed Chris. Thank you again for your input. As I said, there is not a hint of sarcasm when I say that. You are a gentleman and a scholar - well, at least a scholar!

[sanjuro]

Chris

 

Is there a listing of the various levels of Togishi both in Japan and the United States etc?

I'm an Australian and as far as I am aware there are no acceptable togishi in Australia. Geographically we are closer to Japan than the USA, so when we need a sword polished it is a natural thing to defer to Japanese based polishers. The waiting list for these craftsmen is however sometimes daunting. I have in the past tried to get a list of polishers in Japan and elsewhere without success. Perhaps I have not looked in the right places.

 

The classifications of the various polishers is also quite confusing particularly for the beginner, who may not understand the basis upon which they are awarded or the degree of skill and knowledge, hence the competence, associated with the various classifications.

[cabowen]

As for Japan, there is no list or formal ranking. The best, maybe only way, to "rank" them is to look at the results of the yearly polishing contest held by the NBTHK. They publish the results every year. Of course, mukansa polishers are at the top and they are usually well booked. There are those just below this level that regularly win awards. Then there are the newer people who take the entry level awards. There are also excellent polishers who refuse to play politics and stay out of the contest. There can be gold in those waters....

 

One can also ask the museum for recommendations thought there are politics involved with that. Many times people send blades to polish through agents. Most sword dealers broker polishing.

 

As for the US, I have said here previously, there are only 2 resident professionals in the US. I have brought craftsman from Japan to the US to work for 3 month intervals in the past and hope to do so again in the future. The gentleman in San Francisco is usually booked for 7=8 years ahead. I am not sure about the gentleman in Hawaii. If you send it to anyone else in the US you are rolling the dice and they are loaded....

 

If you want further info. I think there are some details on my web site....

[sanjuro]

Thanks Chris.

 

The reason for my question originally, was quite personal. I have 2 koto blades that I know to be very good, that require the attention of a competent polisher. About to enter the minefield of trying to select one and get in touch with him, I thought there may be a register of appropriate togishi. Your comments and warnings here are well taken, although somewhat depressing to someone who is in a position of little knowledge on the subject of engaging a polisher. Any pointers on how to go about it would be a huge help.

[cabowen]

Please email/pm me and I would be happy to help you further....