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Not Nihonto but it is Samurai


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Jason, its a nice saddle but the seller does not own the items, they take pictures from items for sale in Japan and hyper inflate the price and re-list the item list on ebay....some of their items are sold already in Japan and they still list the item as it it were still for sale..

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All, There is in fact considerable lacquer loss on the inside right of the cantle and flaking on the inside left. There also seems to be damage to the kamon on the pommel. What is happening on the unseen areas? I think I would like to see a little more before bidding. A few years ago I finally achieved an ambition to have a display of a mounted Japanese warrior wearing armour in the Oriental Gallery of the Royal Armouries. For this I needed a replica harness, silk fringes, tassels and all. To this end I ordered a replica set from a firm in Japan, including a fibre-glass saddle and cast aluminium stirrups. When it arrived I was amazed just how good their products were. Instead of the expected replica, they sent a real old saddle, decorated with cranes in makie, presumably because its value was little different from a replica.

Ian Bottomley

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Add to the above the fact that this saddle was made during the Edo period. A period of history when the samurai as a class were in decline, in fact were already decadent and had no use for a saddle of this caliber.

 

Show me a saddle from the sengoku Jidai or earlier and I would pay this kind of money and more, because it belonged to a real samurai!

 

Just MYOHO

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Add to the above the fact that this saddle was made during the Edo period. A period of history when the samurai as a class were in decline, in fact were already decadent and had no use for a saddle of this caliber.

 

Show me a saddle from the sengoku Jidai or earlier and I would pay this kind of money and more, because it belonged to a real samurai!

 

Just MYOHO

The Edo period was several hundred years....in that whole period there were no "real" samurai?..they never rode horses in the Edo period...because they stopped having huge wars within their country that butchered tens of thousands of their own people they suddenly became "decadent"?...The Edo period is were some of the best work was done in my opinion....the Japanese had the resources and time to develop their artistic and scientific skills....at the end of the Edo period they were able to transform their country from a feudal society to a world power within a few years...
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My point was not the justice or injustice of feudalism but the relevance of the samurai as a military class. In effect there was no need of a military class in the Edo period which was really only from 1598 onward not several hundred years but less than three hundred (1878) if one were to be exact. When the imperial edict proscribing the wearing of swords was issued.

 

Of course samurai rode horses during the Edo period. They paraded back and forth from Edo to whatever province they came from on a regular basis because the Bakufu required the Daimyo to attend the capitol where their families were literally held hostage. Their saddles were made more for comfort than for security of seat in battle. Make no mistake the Tokugawa were cruel and paranoid masters. In many ways the Edo period was more cruel than the sengoku period. The samurai as effete and useless as they became later in that period, did not ride to war, did not fight much at all in fact. Ergo as a class were ineffectual and unnecessary. In times of peace, a man of war is shunned. The romantic notion of the proud warrior portrayed in popular folklore was in fact largely a myth. In the latter part of the Edo period, the samurai were mostly up to their eyebrows in debt to the rice merchants, having presold their stipends well beyond the next harvest. The 250 years of peace which was the Edo period, were not kind to the samurai at all. So you tell me.... when did the samurai cease to be the warrior class? (when the wounds that they received at the battle of Sekigahara healed)

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My point was not the justice or injustice of feudalism but the relevance of the samurai as a military class. In effect there was no need of a military class in the Edo period which was really only from 1598 onward not several hundred years but less than three hundred (1878) if one were to be exact. When the imperial edict proscribing the wearing of swords was issued.

 

Of course samurai rode horses during the Edo period. They paraded back and forth from Edo to whatever province they came from on a regular basis because the Bakufu required the Daimyo to attend the capitol where their families were literally held hostage. Their saddles were made more for comfort than for security of seat in battle. Make no mistake the Tokugawa were cruel and paranoid masters. In many ways the Edo period was more cruel than the sengoku period. The samurai as effete and useless as they became later in that period, did not ride to war, did not fight much at all in fact. Ergo as a class were ineffectual and unnecessary. In times of peace, a man of war is shunned. The romantic notion of the proud warrior portrayed in popular folklore was in fact largely a myth. In the latter part of the Edo period, the samurai were mostly up to their eyebrows in debt to the rice merchants, having presold their stipends well beyond the next harvest. The 250 years of peace which was the Edo period, were not kind to the samurai at all. So you tell me.... when did the samurai cease to be the warrior class? (when the wounds that they received at the battle of Sekigahara healed)

All good police states need a lot of feet on the ground, and the samurai quickly adapted from soldiers to security forces...a soldier is a soldier no matter what you call them, they also became the civil servants who ran the country including police, fire, tax collection etc. They were able to keep the country under control rather bloodlessly right up to the end...and despite being called the "peacefull" period there was a lot of rebellion, riots, civil unrest, criminal gangs, etc...even a large war....they were not exactly hippies!! "ineffectual and unnecessary" I dont think so...they just changed with the times.
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There is a nice Edo kura with complete leathers in my collection, so I checked on this topic a while ago. Design and construction of the "kura" remained literally unchanged for almost 900 years up to this day. Therefore the suggestion that saddlemakers suddenly ceased to make good saddles and the samurai horsefighter class completely went into retirement just because it happened to be Edo time is off course nonsense. Here are some bits about the "kura":

 

"The horse and the technique of fighting on horseback(bajutsu) was brought to Japan by the mongols. By the 6th century horses were widely used. The typical "kura" type of saddle probably did not develop before the Heian-Period in the 8th century. It gradually developed to its final shape and basically did not change anymore from the Kamakura-Period until modern times(!). It was now perfectly adapted to the highly specialised art of horseback combat as practised by the samurai nobility.

These techniques, usually fighting with bow and arrow, polearms or with the long sword(tachi), required extreme , even artistic skill. Only samurai of the highest ranks were allowed and could afford to use a horse in combat. The training of the a samurai combat horse was expensive, complicated and took a long time.

 

The saddle frame consisted of 4 parts: pommel, cantle, a 2 piece saddle tree holding both together, being the seat at the same time. The 4 parts were connected with special cords supplying a limited flexibility. The saddle was made from hardwood and had a weatherproof layer of laquer. The visible outer parts were decorated in varous styles typical for Japanese laquerwork. Seat cushion as well as leathers were usually made from laquered leather. The saddle was used with a saddle blanket from woven textiles dyed or stitched with with various patterns. The stirrups(abumi) in their distinctive shoelike shape as the saddles did not change anymore after the 13th century. They were made from iron and were either laquered or decorated with inlays of brass, silver or gold."

 

Martin

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The Summer and Winter Campaigns of Osaka 1614-15

The Shimabara Rebellion 1638

The Keian Uprising or the1st Ronin Rebellion of Yui Shosetsu (Aborted) 1651

The 2nd Ronin Rebellion second half of the 17th century (date uncertain)

The Jokyo Uprising 1686

The Oshia Heihachiro Rebellion 1837

The Boshin Senso 1868-69, I guess this could be considered after the Edo period.

These are just some of the confrontations and included many other up-risings. Thus the Daimyo needed standing armies to police and enforce Bakufu policy and were in fief to the Shogun. The Samurai besides being military were the administrators and judiciary of the Bakufu. Although the great numbers were no longer needed the Samurai were essential and it was by and through them that the flowering of many aspects of Edo culture came about. This was not the decadent period that some people think of it as. It had its’ own problems, but, would require chapters to illustrate. John

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There is a nice Edo kura with complete leathers in my collection, so I checked on this topic a while ago. Design and construction of the "kura" remained literally unchanged for almost 900 years up to this day. Therefore the suggestion that saddlemakers suddenly ceased to make good saddles and the samurai horsefighter class completely went into retirement just because it happened to be Edo time is off course nonsense. Here are some bits about the "kura":

 

"The horse and the technique of fighting on horseback(bajutsu) was brought to Japan by the mongols. By the 6th century horses were widely used. The typical "kura" type of saddle probably did not develop before the Heian-Period in the 8th century. It gradually developed to its final shape and basically did not change anymore from the Kamakura-Period until modern times(!). It was now perfectly adapted to the highly specialised art of horseback combat as practised by the samurai nobility.

These techniques, usually fighting with bow and arrow, polearms or with the long sword(tachi), required extreme , even artistic skill. Only samurai of the highest ranks were allowed and could afford to use a horse in combat. The training of the a samurai combat horse was expensive, complicated and took a long time.

 

The saddle frame consisted of 4 parts: pommel, cantle, a 2 piece saddle tree holding both together, being the seat at the same time. The 4 parts were connected with special cords supplying a limited flexibility. The saddle was made from hardwood and had a weatherproof layer of laquer. The visible outer parts were decorated in varous styles typical for Japanese laquerwork. Seat cushion as well as leathers were usually made from laquered leather. The saddle was used with a saddle blanket from woven textiles dyed or stitched with with various patterns. The stirrups(abumi) in their distinctive shoelike shape as the saddles did not change anymore after the 13th century. They were made from iron and were either laquered or decorated with inlays of brass, silver or gold."

 

Martin

Martin, any pictures??? Here is a link to the Soma clan horse festival, http://www.buzzintown.com/new-delhi/art ... d_660.html
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Several years ago I bought the tout-ensemble for a horse from a friend in Kyoto. If memory serves he told me it came from Kyushu somewhere. It is housed in two large pine storage boxes that sadly bear no inscriptions but are of some age. In one was the saddle and stirrups on an original stand, in the other everything else. Most perplexing were two long thick hemp ropes with tasselled ends. I am still not absolutely sure what they are for but I think they are for tying the horse to a beam in the stables to stop it lying down. I append an image showing this. Apart from the usual bridle, breast and crupper straps, in Dutch-cloth with silk fringes, there is a second bridle in gold 'rope', reins, a small halter, alternative saddle-rings, san shaku gawa, yak-hair tassels to attach to the bit, a riding whip and a large elaborately embroidered and heavily padded bum-cover that ties to the crupper straps. This thing is about 3" thick and must have given the horse the most peculiar outline. About two days ago I slung out photos of all the pieces on the basis that I could always take some more - doesn't it always happen. I will charge up the camera and do a few pics today.

Ian Bottomley

post-521-14196778855598_thumb.jpg

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As promised a couple of shots before the batteries gave out. The saddle still has its velvet covered padded cover, no doubt used often since without it they are veritable b*ll-breakers. This has had modern over-sewing using a machine, but I think it of some age. The saddle is dated 3rd year of Meireki. I also show the little stand on which it sits nicely in its box.

Ian B.

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post-521-14196778868666_thumb.jpg

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Piers, Yes, all the loops are present. The ones attached, by hemp cords, are in silver with gold lacquered middle sections. There is also a set of four large embossed copper disc shaped ones with silk cords. These look as if they were gilded at one time but are now rubbed to bare copper. I suspect they were used for special occasions.

Ian

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Some pictures of my saddle, Eric. Except for the side protectors it is complete including chest and stand. I am still lookig for matching protectors in green and gold leather. The kura is late Edo, the abumi are early Edo, maybe earlier. They carry the kiri mon and a signature which I suppose, is "Nariyuki Saku", eberything originally inlaid with silver(ginzogan), most of it gone now. Generally they show a lot of wear. Here they come:

post-1052-14196778872219_thumb.jpg

post-1052-14196778875607_thumb.jpg

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Piers, Yes, all the loops are present. The ones attached, by hemp cords, are in silver with gold lacquered middle sections. There is also a set of four large embossed copper disc shaped ones with silk cords. These look as if they were gilded at one time but are now rubbed to bare copper. I suspect they were used for special occasions.

Ian

Ian, thanks for the pics...thats 2 things I have never seen, the stand and the saddle cover....a really complete set had a lot of parts apparently.
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Some pictures of my saddle, Eric. Except for the side protectors it is complete including chest and stand. I am still lookig for matching protectors in green and gold leather. The kura is late Edo, the abumi are early Edo, maybe earlier. They carry the kiri mon and a signature which I suppose, is "Nariyuki Saku", eberything originally inlaid with silver(ginzogan), most of it gone now. Generally they show a lot of wear. Here they come:
Thanks Martin, nice set..I have been trying to see pictures of all the equipment used for a horse but I never see the stands and now here are 2, Ian just posted a pic and you have a different style, and I didnt realize that there was a special shaped box...great information, good luck on the side protectors..I see them for sale in Japan from time to time.
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After a change of batteries, herewith a few more bits:

The crupper cover is of Dutch-cloth embroidered in gold with a gilded leather border lacquered with karakusa. As said, it is about 3" thick. The shishi has glass eyes and long eyelashes in blue-grey silk.

The two tassels are of yak hair and red silk and hang either side of the bit from the arms that take the reins. Those worn by European cavalry, usually one attached to the bridle, were to stop a cut to the horse's windpipe.

This is one of the two identical hemp ropes that I think were for use in the stables.

Finally the posh bridle in very stiff gold rope with a gilded leather brow band.

Ian

post-521-14196778877677_thumb.jpg

post-521-14196778883159_thumb.jpg

post-521-14196778885782_thumb.jpg

post-521-14196778891209_thumb.jpg

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After a change of batteries, herewith a few more bits:

The crupper cover is of Dutch-cloth embroidered in gold with a gilded leather border lacquered with karakusa. As said, it is about 3" thick. The shishi has glass eyes and long eyelashes in blue-grey silk.

The two tassels are of yak hair and red silk and hang either side of the bit from the arms that take the reins. Those worn by European cavalry, usually one attached to the bridle, were to stop a cut to the horse's windpipe.

This is one of the two identical hemp ropes that I think were for use in the stables.

Finally the posh bridle in very stiff gold rope with a gilded leather brow band.

Ian

Ian, I see some of the horse related bridal parts, ropes etc from time to time but its hard to identify the actual use, pictures like these put the parts into context.
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Something you do not see much of is pack horse equipment. Besides a personal horse a samurai would need another horse to carry his equipment, here is a picture of a pack saddle and bit, I am not sure if it is a horse saddle or not. 100_7206.jpg

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Here are some terms from the Oxford-Duden Japanese-English Dictionary for harness. Might come in handy sometime. John

Harness 馬具

Bridle 馬勒

Halter 頭絡

Girth 腹帯

Reins 手綱

Saddle 鞍

Saddle seat 鞍座

Pommel 鞍 頭

Cantle 鞍尾

Flap (fender) 垂れ

Stirrup 鐙

and Eric's pack saddle 荷鞍

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If you are a horse freak I would highly recommend Sasama's 'Nihon no Kassen Bugu Jiten' (ISBN 4-7601-1705-9). This has sections on archery, guns, banners, camp equipment etc and everything to do with horses. It explains how to tie all the bits of a harness together as well as details of different breeds of horse, colourings, types of harness and so much more.

John - Thank you for the kanji.

Eric - love the pack saddle. I assume the bit is for a pack animal since there are no arms for reins.

Ian B.

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If you are a horse freak I would highly recommend Sasama's 'Nihon no Kassen Bugu Jiten' (ISBN 4-7601-1705-9). This has sections on archery, guns, banners, camp equipment etc and everything to do with horses. It explains how to tie all the bits of a harness together as well as details of different breeds of horse, colourings, types of harness and so much more.

John - Thank you for the kanji.

Eric - love the pack saddle. I assume the bit is for a pack animal since there are no arms for reins.

Ian B.

One more book for the ever growing list, I have this pair of ropes and I am wondering if they might be horse related, they are 12 ft long with loops on one end and tassels on the other and quite thick..any opinions

100_7215.jpg I think these tassels seem to be horse related also. 100_7226.jpg

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Eric, Your small purple tassels could well be for the bit. It looks as if similar ones were used to attach the bit to the bridle, although those I have seem rather too delicate. Your ropes are clearly for the same purpose as mine. Initially I thought they were for the grooms to lead the horse with but they are far too massive - you could dock a ship with them. I think they are stable ropes.

Ian

post-521-1419677907241_thumb.jpg

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This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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