Star Stamped swords

[george trotter]

A recent thread showed a wide spread of opinion on star stamp swords of WWII...gendaito or not?

Some consider the star to indicate simply "made for the army, nothing more", some consider any stamp to signify military swords and thus essentially militaria. Some consider the star stamp and certain other stamps as signifying true gendaito. I read Ohmura's translation of star stamped swords in "Zoheito" (Arsenal swords) as posted by Jacques...see http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_064.htm and found I was confused as to Ohmura san's exact meaning, so I decided to do my own translation of the first part to see if there was any additional information. My translation is as follows:

Army workshops (Zoheisho) made two classes of sword for commissioned officers; under direction and directly manufactured. Commonly lumped together under one name, they became popularly called "Zoheito" (Arsenal swords).

HONTANRENTO (True forged swords)

1. Swordsmiths were commissioned to forge swords at the named workshop's forge (the nakago was marked with the swordsmith's mei and the workshop's logo/mark). Tokyo Hohei Kosho: Yokoyama Sukekane, Morioka Masayoshi; Tokyo No 1 Army Workshop: Yoshihara Nobushiro, (Akihiro, Kuniiye same man); Osaka Kosho: Gassan Sadakatsu, Sadakazu (nidai), Sadashige, Masakiyo; Kokura Kosho: Hakuryushi Tadataka, Taira Sadashige, Kanenobu; Kyuheikisho (refurbishment workshop): Yoshihara, others.

2. Private swordsmiths, and also Sword companies were commissioned to forge swords (nakago marked with mei and simple Army Star inspection mark).

3. Army specification Gendai forged swords (nakago marked with mei, date and star). Rikugun Jumei Tosho made swords of the style. They were trialled from Sho 15. From Sho 17 it was implemented nationally. For efficiency, a big break was made with the tradition of individuallistic handwork and non-uniformity of Nihonto "True Standardisation" was tried for the first time. Every sword was subjected to severe inspection to maintain quality/performance. (I am not sure if I have translated the following correctly) The former drawback of testing each sword (as in old sword making in meito times) by tameshigiri was not used. This was the first time such a situation occurred.

The next part of the article is about mass-produced swords.

From the above, it seems that true gendaito appear with

1. tosho mei and small logo stamp, eg "saka", and "na" etc (eg Ichihara Nagamitsu with "saka").

2. Blades with mei (no date?) and star stamp made "on-site".

3. Blades with mei, date and star-stamp made "off-site" by Rikugun Jumei Tosho .

All the smiths who made these swords were top quality smiths, so the presence of a star stamp or "saka" or "na" should not automatically dismiss the sword as "Militaria gunto". Jumei Tosho also made swords without star stamps, some with "contract numbers" on tang (not assembly numbers which are usually painted and correspond to the arabic numbers stamped on the fittings).

 

Chris Bowen has seen hundreds of these swords and all (with rare exception) have been clearly true nihonto. We know that Rikugun Jumei Tosho were issued tamahagane by the army, they were issued charcoal by the prefecture. They had to conform in swordmaking to the Army regulation sizes, lengths, hamon etc, but also to ensure all swords were tamahagane, wrapped construction etc...true nihonto. Chris Bowen also says these star stamped swords have been papered by NBTHK anf NTHK.

It would seem that collectors who find a blade with a star-stamp, but cannot find the smith on the Jumei Tosho list may be wise to check if it has a date? as it may indicate a sword described in (2.), ie stamped with a star "on-site", but not necessarily made by a Jumei Tosho.

 

I hope this information is of interest...I hope also that I have not made any terrible mistakes, if so, hopefully our Japanese speakers will correct my post. I do this post to help the discussion on Star-stamped swords, not to confuse it.

Regards,

George.

[huntershooter]

Most interesting George.

Thank you for your effort!

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I think the best way is asking the NBTHK about this matter. As i'm not a member i can't do it because i will not recieve any response. But If a NBTHK member want to do it, he will definitively clarify this point.

[Bruno]

Yes that would be a good start. Do we have NMB members who are also NBTHK members? It would be nice also if Morita and Moriyama san could enlight us about this interesting question.

For sure star stamped swords are better done than mass produced gunto but I have been told by a very serious french togishi and swords restorateur that gendaito were not(in many cases) made with tamahagane. I suspect he is a purist mainly focused on shinto swords but his knowledge is very impressive. So when he told me that I was a bit surprised(deceived to).

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

What about to find if somebody here have had, or know of, or has seen a star stamped sword with Torokusho ?

[huntershooter]

Bruno- by definition Gendaito were made with tamahagane. If made from any other material a sword would not be Gendaito. I'm not sure I understand what your togishi friend was telling you.

[Bruno]

I'm not sure I understand what your togishi friend was telling you.

 

Well, the togishi simply said that (most of)gendaito are not made with true tamahagane so cannot be considered as true nihonto. It is just his point of view, not mine...

[Daniel]

Well if a sword has a torokusho or not really doesn't mean anything I guess since I have a seki stamped showato with a torokusho see pictures in the military swords section page 2 topic help by me Daniel Regards Daniel

[Stephen]

To George, id take it to the bank what Chris Bowen told George, he spent years teaching in Nippon and that was his field of study (Gendaito that is) while there.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Well if a sword has a torokusho or not really doesn't mean anything

 

Are you sure ?

 

http://www.una.edu/faculty/takeuchi/DrT ... Letter.htm

 

 

quote...

 

Only traditionally made Nihontô can be registered, i.e. swords made in Japan from Tamahagane 玉鋼 (and Shintô swords that are inscribed "Motte Namban-Tesu 以南蠻鐵" ["made using steel from the southern barbarians"]). This means in effect that it has to be either an antique, or made by a contemporary, licensed smith. Mass produced WWII swords (so called Shôwatô 昭和刀) and foreign made swords are not eligible for Tôrokushô.

 

unquote.

[Daniel]

I know that type of sword shouldn't have one.Just wanted to show that if a sword has a torokusho or not maybe doesn't mean that much if a sword like that slips thru please have a look/Daniel

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Of course I meant a legit one, matching the length, Sori, and Mei not one attached to

fool the purchaser.

 

But got what you mean. No proof enough because of too few details easy to be matched

by non traditional items.

[george trotter]

Hi all,

Great to hear the views of all.

From what I "re"translated...and I don't claim to be a language expert, the star stamp certainly is limited to properly trained swordsmiths forging proper swords.... All the swords I have seen with a star have looked like gendaito to me...also Chris Bowen, who has seen 100's says that with rare exception, they were gendaito.

 

I tried to check the lists of gendaitosho who had been papered and while a fair number are these army commissioned smiths, it is not possible to tell the date of the sword and whether stars are present, but Chris Bowen's experience with star-stamp swords being papered is to be relied upon...but as has been said by Jacques, it would also be VERY helpful if a NBTHK member were to somehow check the records (published in Token Bijutsu perhaps?) and let us know of a few specific cases. That would settle the star-stamp/gendaito question...of course, it still comes back to the quality of each blade submitted for shinsa.

 

Bruno mentioned the togishi's comment about the difficulty of telling tamahagane in a blade, quite true...but as it is well known that the army supplied tamahagane to Jumei Tosho and they were instructed to use it, and forge swords in the traditional manner, and the army inspector then stamped the successfully examined Jumei Tosho blade with the star...it is reasonable to conclude that "as a group" these star blades can be classed as gendaito of tamahagane...I feel the star cannot be linked to the 1940 government regulation about stamping all "non-traditional" blades swords...implying that any stamp means "non-traditional". As with all things Japanese, there are exceptions of course.

Regards,

George.

[Daniel]

Hi again if it legit or not I do not know.The seller never showed me the torokusho before I bought it so he didn't try to fool me.He imported it straight from Japan for me and when it arrived it had the torokusho attached to the saya.What I mean is that the people who writes the paper maybe isn't always experts themselves.Well anyway the topic are about star stamped swords so I shouldn't hijack it with this.This is maybe another question.Daniel

[george trotter]

PS...I just realised I posted the wrong Ohmura site link...the one Jacques posted and I re-translated is

http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_115.htm Just in case you want to compare Ohmura san's translation with mine.

Also, it occurs to me that the group 2. private Tosho and sword companies most likely worked "off-site" also.

Geo.

[george trotter]

Hi all,

continuing my search for the "truth" about star-stamped swords I asked a prominent Japanese polisher whether star stamped swords had received papers at shinsa of NBTHK and NTHK. He did not answer clearly, only saying that "sadly", star stamped swords are regarded as "mass-produced" swords made for the military in WWII which are prohibited from import into Japan and are banned from shinsa in Japan.

 

As we have clear documentary evidence that star stamped swords were made by qualified tosho, Rikugun Jumei Tosho and were required and inspected to conform to tamahagane use, fold/wrapped forging etc...we know that they are gendaito. Personal inspection by experienced collectors of the calibre of Chris Bowen and many members here confirms that they are traditional swords. Chris Bowen has also confirmed that star stamped swords have received papers, so this comment above leads to the conclusion that the ban on star-stamp swords has been imposed in more recent times? ...can anyone shine any light on this situation.

To class these swords as mass-produced is clearly inexplicable. For myself, I think it amazing that blades by military affilliated smiths such as Gassan Sadakatsu, nidai Sadakazu, Miyairi Akihira, Yoshihara Kuniiye just to name a few, would be rejected as "mass-produced" just because they have a military stamp or star stamp on them.

Do we have any NMB members or NBTHK or NTHK affilliates who can confirm just one star-stamp sword to have papers?...it would be helpful.

Regards,

George.

[estcrh]

PS...I just realised I posted the wrong Ohmura site link...the one Jacques posted and I re-translated is

http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_115.htm Just in case you want to compare Ohmura san's translation with mine.

Also, it occurs to me that the group 2. private Tosho and sword companies most likely worked "off-site" also.

Geo.

George, here is an example of a showa stamped katana which looks traditional, should I assume the it is made with something other than tamahagane but still made in a traditional manner? I am still trying to understand this. Thanks for the info.

It is supposed to be signed "Ikami Sadahiro"

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi George,

 

Re the appreciation of Star Stamped blades:

 

There is a very telling insight in Tom Kishida's Yasukuni Blades, where Mishina Kenji writes candidly about his preconceived ideas and eventual discovery and appreciation of Yasukuni - To.

 

Mishina san continues to say that Yasukuni - To had to be appreciated outside of Japan before being generally appreciated in Japan.

 

No one wants to be the nail that sticks up perhaps.

 

Cheers

Malcolm

[David Flynn]

Eric, the top pic, looks oil tempered to me.

[pcfarrar]

continuing my search for the "truth" about star-stamped swords I asked a prominent Japanese polisher whether star stamped swords had received papers at shinsa of NBTHK and NTHK. He did not answer clearly, only saying that "sadly", star stamped swords are regarded as "mass-produced" swords made for the military in WWII which are prohibited from import into Japan and are banned from shinsa in Japan.

 

I think the reason is that many star stamp swords are just to poor quality for shinsa. The sword has to have some artistic merit and many star stamped blades lack in this department.

[estcrh]

Eric, the top pic, looks oil tempered to me.

David, can you let me know what you see that makes you think this is an oil temper? Thanks.

[pcfarrar]

David, can you let me know what you see that makes you think this is an oil temper? Thanks.

 

David is right its probably oil tempered. The nioiguchi is the give away.

[george trotter]

Peter,

I agree that every sword going to shinsa will be judged on its merit, but I wonder if anyone can say that star stamp swords as a group are just "too poor" in quality and do not have the minimum requirement of "artistic merit'. I'm sure you would hear howls of rage from all those who bought them FOR their quality and artistic merit...I certainly admired all those I have seen/owned.

The explanation does not work (for me) on three levels:

1. These s/stamps are, from WWII documentation and collector experience, true gendaito..that is the criterion to get papered (plenty of meritless and poor quality "nihonto" get papered as to "what they are"...why not these gendaito.

2. The Yasukunito are all the same in size, style, hada, hamon..very good, but built to the same prescribed military regulations...these are, by WWII documentation and experience, true gendaito...they were once banned now they are not. They get papered as to what they are, not the grading of their artisticness/merit, other than the subjective comment "worthy of preservation"

3. It seems that star stamp gendaito may once have been admitted to shinsa and been granted papers that they are gendaito (actual proof needed) but now are banned...the opposite of Yasukunito...why is this? have they stopped being gendaito?

 

Is all of this an example of "fashion"? ok one year, out of favour the next...I'd truly like to know. Those Star stamp swords I have handled/owned were far more ibdividualistic and "artistic" than the Yasukunito I have handled and certainly seemed of equal quality...can anyone help.

Regards,

George.

[estcrh]

David, can you let me know what you see that makes you think this is an oil temper? Thanks.

 

David is right its probably oil tempered. The nioiguchi is the give away.

I am sure this subject has been brought up before but can you elaborate a bit more on how the nioiguchi looks on an oil quenched blade compared to a water quenched one?

[pcfarrar]

I am sure this subject has been brought up before but can you elaborate a bit more on how the nioiguchi looks on an oil quenched blade compared to a water quenched one?

 

Compare your swords nioiguchi with the one on this Yasukunito:

 

http://www.nihonto.ca/yasunori/ss.html

 

It's hard to describe but an oil tempered nioiguchi lacks the clarity, brightness and fine detail of a water tempered blade. The oil tempered ones looks artificial and are normally a thick white smudge. Once you've handled plenty of showato / gendaito the difference is apparent straight away.

[Stephen]

just because it has a stamp doesn't means it had an one before someone got there greedy hands on a good looking stamp less blade. 10 or 12 years ago JSS/US ran a bit on Star Stamp blades, in the next few weeks they came out of the woodwork on Ebay, some with a very bright steel showing star and not even the same size star as the ones shown in the article. They (whoever They are) have been putting out gimei gendaito for some time.

[David Flynn]

Eric, Peter is right about the Habuchi. When looked at closely, a "True", Habuchi shows individual crystals, whilst an oil Tempered habuchi looks like a long smudge. Also, this particular style of hamon is quite common on Seki made Showa, non gendai swords.

[estcrh]

Eric, Peter is right about the Habuchi. When looked at closely, a "True", Habuchi shows individual crystals, whilst an oil Tempered habuchi looks like a long smudge. Also, this particular style of hamon is quite common on Seki made Showa, non gendai swords.

Thanks Peter and David, this sword has been stored for awhile and other than taking pictures I never really took the time to look at it carefully. The problem I have is that I have not seen a good source with pictures as well as descriptions of what to look for and to tell you the truth I see blades all the time being called gendai which from a picture do not look much better, so as Peter said ..that without seeing more examples in hand it is quite hard to be sure of what to look for. I have a couple of seki stamped blades were there is no doubt at all that they are not traditional made and I have some high quality non stamped traditional blades which are easy to see.......but when it comes to the low quality traditional and the high quality non traditional its not as easy...for me at least. I will have to take them all out and do some side by side comparing, Thanks for the help!

[george trotter]

Well, I thank all for their comments so-far (although some have gone off topic)...but I must say that the lack of "real" feedback on star- stamp swords and shinsa papers etc is mystfying.

I would have thought that NMB members, some of whom mix at the top of the Japanese sword world, would have some knowledge to share, or obtain some knowledge to share. Whether they are liked or disliked, star marked swords are a part of nihonto history and deserve to be discussed/clarified...I can't believe there is no knowledge on this subject.

I will continue my inquiries anyway and will post whatever I find (pro or con).

regards,

George.

[moss]

Thanks George,

Always nice informatation,the bottom of the sword world ,(and I only speak for myself here)...gunto lovers appreciate your work.

 

Cheers Moss