Translation help needed please

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

So Jacques, what do you think Ohmura san is saying about forging of star stamp swords ?

George.

 

 

Blades made for the army by private smiths, nothing else.

 

 

I'm wondering how star stamped blades could have been papered by NBTHK, this kind of blade is considered as weapon and not nihon-tô and for this reason forbidden in Japan.

[BOB A CLARK]

hi guys this has been very interesting to a new guy but i think i kind of got lost in the discussion here. i think my blade is oil tempered is it ? is it a machine made blade or hand made? i was told that the ray skin scabbard was black at one time and has turned this brown color over time is that true?

thanks again bob

[george trotter]

It's interesting what you say...maybe you have exposed an unknown factor here.

Ohmura does say that the star stamped blades are made/forged by private swordsmiths and are stamped in the "arsenal" with the star. I have understood from various writers that the star means a blade made by a "Rikugun Jumei Tosho" (an Army Commissioned Swordsmith), but maybe there are two different things? Ohmura seems to be saying here that these are definitely "forged" blades, as opposed to "Zoheito" which are essentially mass produced? (he is unsure how to classify them)...and in another section of his site

http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_064.htm

he says a lot about Army Commissioned Swordsmith rules (Rikugun Jumei Tosho) but I cannot see that he mentions a star stamp. My Japanese is not very good, but it does say that these smiths were to make the swords in the traditional wrapped way, with shingane and Tamahagane. He shows nakagos and meis examples of these swordsmiths including, on the left, Imai Sadaroku...none seem to have stars. I have had his work in hand (no star) and it is definitely gendaito work. Ohmura gives a list of smiths who were Jumei Tosho and one is Yamagami Munetoshi. I have one by him with no star and it is definitely gendaito...but a site "Montana...?" has one by him with a star and it is signed differentl Kanji for Toshi...can there be two different grades of swords made by Jumei Tosho? A "pure Tamahagane gendaito" (no star) and a what? (they appear to be true gendaito) with no star.

 

Maybe Moriyama san could look at the Japanese part of the Ohmura site Jacques listed, and I listed here, and just tell us what the meaning of the star stamp and Jumei Tosho is?

Regards,

George.

[george trotter]

Bob, your blade is probably partially machine made and oil tempered I think (Seki stamp) and hand polished, and the guy told you right...the scabbard is covered with rayskin and polished (thats why you can see the white polished knobs), originally it was dyed black but it has faded to brown now. Your sword is a nice clean example of a WWII navy sword...look after it, it is not common to get one in such clean condition.

 

This other discussion has arisen from the matter of stamp marks on swords...we can't seem to be sure about these things and their meanings ourselves, so don't be surprised that you, as a newbie, are wondering what we are talking about...your stamp is well known however, so what we've told you about yours is pretty well established.

Regards (and sorry for going off on a tangent on your thread)...

George.

[John A Stuart]

As far as I can see swords stamped by inspectors marks (star) are only swords made to specifications by the Japanese army. They must adhere to sizes, curve, materials used, carbon content and others. They even have regulations on how the mei is to be written. Ther are other tests done as well, hammer test, drop test etc. on the first swords in a run. I see no mention of tamagahane at all, I suspect that swords without the inspectors stamp were not in a run and were made outside of general specifications and of higher quality generally or outside of standardised dimensions. John

[Rich S]

Jacques wrote:

 

"I'm wondering how star stamped blades could have been papered by NBTHK, this kind of blade is considered as weapon and not nihon-tô and for this reason forbidden in Japan."

 

Both Ichiryushi Nagamitsu and Chounsai Emura blades have receieved both NTHK and NBTHK papers. Nagamitsu was Jumei Tosho, but I've never seen nor heard of one star stamped. Emura was not Jumei Tosho. IMHO, we should forget about "star" stamps and focus on the quality of the blade as the stamp seems to mean very little either here or to the NTHK and NBTHK.

 

Rich S

[David Flynn]

Another note. I believe Star stamps were only on swords made in 1943-44.

[george trotter]

I agree with most of the above...with extra thoughts.

The focus is not on "star stamps" themselves but on the blade...I have never seen a "bad" star stamp blade. All those I have seen appear to be good quality gendaito...I thought they were the Rikugun Jumei Tosho blade, but it seems possibly not, although these designated smiths seem to have made both untsamped and stamped blades...I can't really tell the difference in quality...they both seem very good.

Reading Ohmura's english translation seems to show that star stamp blades were made "for" the army by private smiths and stamped by inspectors...it is not clear (to me) if these guys worked "in" an "arsenal" or supplied the "arsenal" from their private forges where they were stamped.

Ohmura says on the Japanese page that the Rikugun Jumei Tosho had to work to Army specifications regarding length, sori, hamon, tamahagane, kitae etc etc...but so did the Yasukuni tosho and others...it was the "army size" sword perfected after 10 years of war...and essentially the best size, shape, length for ground fighting, as their ancestors also found in koto times (uchigatana types).

Of course we should always look at any blade quality to judge it...but this discussion is about clearing up the star/no-star question...Moriyama's help would be appreciated.

Regards,

George.

[John A Stuart]

Two standard sizes were made and I believe in accordance to the Toyama-ryu specifications as adopted by the army. John

[george trotter]

Most of the blades I have seen were c.66cm long...a very few were c.69 cm. Are these the two sizes you mention John?

Also, further to the star stamp swords...while a number of swords have been papered which are by makers known to have been Jumei Tosho/star stamp smiths...the lists I have seen don't specifically state that the examples papered were star stamped or of wartime date...does anyone have a lead as to whether star stamp swords have been papered. I would also be interested in a list of swords papered as true gendai which shows the kanji for the names...does anyone have a site/link to point me to?

 

I suppose, since it is known that Jumei Tosho were issued Tamahagane and were strictly instructed to make traditional swords to army size/length/shape etc, that their swords must be true gendaito...they certainly look like it...they have hada, nie etc. and because of the Tamahagane use regulation, we know that they are made with tamahagane. If they don't have a stamp (as per the regulations that non-traditional blades must be stamped) it must mean these Jumei Tosho blades, Yasukuni gendaito, Minatogawa gendaito are just that, traditional nihonto of tamahagane. Two of my three Jumei Tosho swords are unstamped so comply with the above definition...they are definitely gendaito by their characteristics...a third blade is also by a designated Jumei Tosho, also definitely traditionally made, but is star-stamped ...so the meaning of the presence of the star is not totally clear. If it means they were inspected in an "arsenal", it means they passed the test for privately made swords...and also that the maker is a Jumei Tosho? as these stamps only appear on blades by Jumei Tosho I believe?....so, can anyone comment who knows about shinsa/papers/gendaito? or can translate more of the two Ohmura sites...regards,

George.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

More info (from the same book quoted above).

 

[John A Stuart]

Hi George, the two lengths quoted are, small version 2.0 to 2.1 Shaku, 2.1-2.2 Shaku; large 2.3 Shaku . John

[george trotter]

Hi Jacques,

yes I have that book. I also know that your earlier post from it includes the star stamp as an evidence to indicate a non-traditional blade...but I think, having had excellent star-stamp blades in hand, made by Jumei Tosho, (and look no different to unstamped blades by Tamahagane using Jumei Tosho) isn't it too simple to be so "positive" in the statement. This book acknowledges that the data is from US and UK sources...therefore, I would feel happier to know exactly what Ohmura's Japanese research has to say about it.

It is just an interesting point that some blades by Jumei Tosho designated smiths have a star stamp, but seem in no way to be less perfect than true (unstamped) gendaito by these same makers. If we take on face value the statement that stamps always indicate showato...it must follow that unstamped blades are nihonto? It must include all Yasukunito, Minatogawato, Jumei Toshoto without exception? This means also of course Mantetsuto as they have no stamp? I think therefore, there may be exceptions like all aspects of Japanese swords...again it would be good to see if there is any new information in Ohmura.

What do you think about this Jacques? I'm sure the discussion would be interested to hear your opinion. If you are involved in the shinsa world, can you (or anyone else) advise if star stamp blades have been papered...or definitely rejected and the reason?

 

Regards,

George.

[george trotter]

Thanks John...I must say I haven't seen such short blades as 60 cm 2-2.1 shaku (that I remember), most are 2.3 shaku with a few over that. This standardised length is ideal for military use, but I remember reading that the regulations prevented the young upcoming swordsmiths (at Yasukuni etc) from really experimenting and expressing themselves...they had to wait until the post-war period. maybe this explains the immediate move to make swords 70 cm and more in modern times. Even for me (6 '2" or 188 cm) these seem big clumsy swords...not as practical as the gunto size...just an opinion.

George.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Showato and gendaito are not my prefered among Japanese swords. Rikugun jumei tosho exist before WWII, they produced both true nihonto and others which were not, and because it was sometimes quite impossible to differentiate them the stamp system was dreamed up and involved. Personnaly i consider all stamped blades as non traditionally made.

 

Among those which bear no stamps, Man knows that Mantetsu are not made from tamahagane and bear a mei easily recognizable. Yasukuni-tô are made from tamahagane and are true nihontô i think (but i'm not sure) it is the same for Minatogawa-tô..

[David Flynn]

And now for something completely different (sorry monty) How about Tan stamps?

P.S.

I used to believe there was something dodgy with star stamps. However, before the Sydney Shinsa, we in communication with the NTHK(Yoshikawa Grp) and asked if Star stamps would be acceptable and we were informed they were.

[george trotter]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for that comment. I suppose Tan stamps are "stamps" too and indicate non-traditional blades...it seems obvious that more reserch needs to be done.

Can you say if any star stamp blades accepted for shinsa were papered as gendaito? It does always depend on the blade, but it is an "indication" that star-stamps blades might be more than just showato.

 

Just back to Jacques comment on Mantetsuto being clearly marked as being made of Mantetsu and therefore not tamahagane made gendaito...I wonder what "namban tetsu" marked on a shinto balde would indicate...?

 

Regards,

George

[paulb]

George,

I think the generally held view is that the mention of nambantetsu on shinto blades refers to the inclusion of some foreign steel in to a blade that is otherwise made with tamahagane rather than exclusively from foreign steel.

As I think you or another said earlier once in a finished sword it is almost impossible to tell whether a blade was made from Tamahagane or something else. Personal view is that the vogue for including Dutch iron was a fashion thing created by the sudden availability of different raw material and the chance to differentiate yourself from those around you using basically the same local material.

I also think that in one of Fuller and Gregory's books they described the "Tan" stamp as being indicative of a traditionally made sword. they do not mention the basis of this opinion.

regards

Paul

[george trotter]

Thanks Paul...yes I agree, foreign iron was probably a fashion thing...perhaps only a truly experienced appraiser can tell whether there was any namban tetsu in a blade, even when marked as such...and I'm speaking as someone who owned a Sandai Echizen Yasutsugu blade.

I was really only joshing about this Mantetsu-Nambantetsu thing...of course there is no comparison. About the Tan stamp etc...a lot of the information appears to come from the west as we have so many gunto/gendaito blades of 1926-45 period, and most knowledge comes from our observations...that is why I think it would be good to have some deeper Japanese research...Yoshihara and Kapp say only that as so many types of sword were produced it is difficult in many cases to determine what some of these stamps actually mean (p.67). i also once quoted them about not being able to tell a tamahagane use blade and a western steel blade as long as both had hada and nie etc.

On the star stamp, i don't think we can go much farther discussing the the meaning of it until someone confirms or dismisses that these swords have received papers.

regards,

George

[David Flynn]

George, no Star Stamp swords were presented at the Sydney Shinsa. The reason for me mentioning the fact that I checked with the NTHK, was because, Adrian Schlemmer and myself attended the NY shinsa in 06. At this shinsa, the Americans in charge, were accepting all swords. Many swords with Showa and Seki stamps were submitted and failed. We therefore checked to see what swords would be acceptable as we didn't want anything like what occurred in NY happening here.

[george trotter]

Thanks David,

so...still no confirmation that star stamp blades were papered.

I think I'll have to have a go at translating those passages in Ohmura myself...only trouble is I often don't understand exactly the meaning of some sentences...still, if I uncover any secrets on star stamps I'll post it.

Thanks again,

George.

[Rich S]

Someone should check with Chris Bowen. If anyone has seen papered star stamped blades, it should be him.

 

Rich S

[george trotter]

Hi all,

close on two days have passed and I have been off-line. Terrible storms, hail, lightning etc here...internet down...$100 mil in damage in city/suburbs....but, I have been translating the passage on "Zoheito" (Arsenal Swords) with Star Stamps by Ohmura that Jacques posted as a link on this thread...very interesting results which I am still checking. I have also just PM'd Chris Bowen about it and when I get a reply (which hopefully will assist my findings), I will post it as a new discussion thread about Star-Stamp swords.

Regards from a victim of the taiphun...

George.