A new acquisition

[Ford Hallam]

You surprise me, Reinhard

 

You seem unwilling to present any evidence for your assertions apart form vague criteria apparently only evident to you.

 

Western expectations (size, design, proportions, colour etc.) combined with traditional Japanese skills and craftsmanship automatically lead to Hama-Mono: things made for export during Meiji-period. Everything about this tsuba is pointing this way. It looks like a well executed piece of work, but somehow far from Japanese sense of aesthetics.

 

What on earth are Western expectations in terms of proportions and colour?

I'm amazed you see this as being "far from Japanese sense of aesthetics". Everything aspect of this work speaks of native Japanese sensibilities.

 

Actually there are remarkable differences and they are making the difference between Japanese aesthetics and Western-orientated design. Hardly any artist working for export during second half of 19th century was able to bridge these poles succesfully without betraying one principle or the other. If you don't mind I would like to stick to Tsuba and their very particular demands. Widening the topic to (Western) images and (Japanese) picture scrolls won't get us anywhere. Show me any (confirmed) tsuba by untraceable (sic!) Hisanori or any other Tsubako with a similar design and workmanship predateing late Bakumatsu or Meiji-period and I will bow.

 

This tsuba fits all criteria of late work made for export. Size, design, execution, a dubious, untraceable mei etc. It's quite obvious, don't you think?

 

Yes, I quite agree. There are marked differences in the way Western artists and Japanese artists would have rendered such a subject. This tsuba being a very good example of the Japanese approach.

 

I also think it is impossible to study the aesthetics of any one type of artefact (the tsuba in this case) without a decent appreciation of the broader artistic heritage that informed those makers. This becomes essential when the discussion moves on to the manifestation of foreign influence.

 

...and just to clarify my case; I maintain this tsuba is absolutely not Hamamono, it is not modern and the design is certainly not Western in an aesthetic sense.

 

I believe this to be a fine example of late 19th cent work. It is a striking piece of design that is rendered in such a way as to convince me this is the work of an very talented artist. There is nothing about the work that leads me to see it as anything other than pure Japanese and reflective of the developments in metal art that occupied the best artists of that time.

 

I can't wait to see the wakizashi tsuba that apparently belongs with it.

 

regards,

 

ford

[John A Stuart]

I do not know about whether the Japanese bronzes of the Bakumatsu influenced Remington or visa versa or Rodin or whatever, but, I think this horse tsuba fits the Tamamono (term?) 賚 niche. Gifts given for artistic appreciation over function. I include tsuba exhibiting katakiribori that are Tamamono without a doubt. One is a Jakutei made tsuba of the 19th century. The other I hide to reduce pre-conception. John

 

 

post 1940

[Ford Hallam]

John,

 

I really don't think you can make a statement like this;

I include tsuba exhibiting katakiribori that are Tamamono without a doubt.

without some serious evidence.

 

That tsuba is no different from 100's, if not 1000's, of similar tsuba with kata-kiri decoration. To, seemingly arbiterally, label it as Tama-mono seems somewhat dubious to me and in fact quite doubtful.

 

As for the other tsuba..

.some may have needed the spoiler but to me it absolutely screams post war amateur work and not particularly good at that.

 

 

 

 

.

[John A Stuart]

Well, maybe some better examples. I was trying to illustrate tsuba made never to be mounted, in a comparable style, that weren't made for the western export market. I guess I failed in that respect. John

[Ford Hallam]

I thought it might be of interest to introduce some of the background to the style of painting this kata-kiri horse emulates,

 

There's a brief essay here, which may be of some interest and I quote from that text;

 

the Chinese Chan (Zen in Japanese) tradition of paintings, which is full of humor and spontaneity. These paintings depict their subjects with great simplicity — a horse is sketched in only a few strong, dark outlines filled in with pale inkwashes.

 

If you examine this 18th cent ink painting and then think about how it would be rendered in kata-kiri bori I think it is fairly clear were the style on this copper tsuba originates.

These are some drawing by Hokusai that show many of the same sorts of abbreviation and stylisation.

 

 

This line is worth considering also;

 

Unlike Western artists, Japanese painters might paint in different styles from one day to the next.

 

Hi John,

 

ah, ok ...I see what you were getting at.

[george trotter]

It has been mentioned that this tsubaka is apparently some obscure export artist who signed as Hisanori who is "untraceable"...I'm not sure what that means...I don't have Haynes, but I looked up my little library of fittings makers (the two primary sources used by Haynes) and it seems a lot of Hisanoris have been traced. Most worked late Edo into Meiji...quite a few are listed...Wouldn't conceivably more than one of these be in the correct working dates to have worked on this tsuba? I don't know about their styles, but there are:

Chizuka Hisanori...orig. Kaga,...to Edo, worked 2nd half of the 18th Cent...school of Teruhide of Omori

Ikeda Hisanori...Kaga...works noticed 1830,1844...signed Manzai

Hisanori...Owari...end of Edo period

Imai Hisanori...(with kao) 1804 ...used akagane and nanako ground, takabori

Watanuki? Hisanori...(is this written on the box?)...Tokyo...Meiji period ...mentioned by Marc

(sources Hara 1902 Masters of Japanese Sword Art (in German) and Wakayama 1984 Toko kinko jiten (in Japanese)... if I've messed up the translations I'm sorry in advance.

 

I love the horse (with a name like Trotter how could I not?).

Hope this helps,

George.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

the tsuba on this link even if it is not the matter discussed here shows that western influence didn't wait for the Meiji era and hamamono.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Jacques,

I believe we discussed that very tsuba on the board some time ago.

 

You are absolutely correct, of course, foreign influences have always been a significant feature of Japanese art.

[sanjuro]

Whilst I am no authority on tsuba, It would seem to me that since there have been obvious Western influences on Japanese art from time to time, that the Japanese artist has always reverted to the basic Japanese aesthetic of that which is unadorned and rustic. That being so, and we being Western viewers of this Japanese art form, we are bound to identify that which seems to us to be a 'Western' influence in Japanese art.

In fact this horse is rendered in a very Japanese way, with an economy of line and an eye for the accent of movement which is so typically Japanese, with or without a Western influence.

It would seem to me to be not a modern piece unless the artist was influenced by Japanese aesthetics and rendering a drawing in a western manner, which would be somewhat anomolous.

If this is a modern tsuba then it has certainly fooled me

[reinhard]

Show me any tsuba, as pompous and theatrical as this one, predating Meiji-period and this discussion will eventually start to make sense. A "HISANORI"-mei on it would be nice to see as well, adding at least some credibility to former statements. Go on, convince me.

 

I wonder if this talk is still about this particular tsuba or just about establishing profiles?

 

reinhard

[george trotter]

Would it be pertinant to the "who/when" discussion to address the information presented by the hakogaki? I have not seen it mentioned (maybe I missed it?). I am not familiar with koshirae gaki, and I have struggled to translate this...so to me it looks like it "might be":

"Hisanori (?yo?) Watanuki? Tei"

Any comments?

George.

[Ford Hallam]

I wonder if this talk is still about this particular tsuba or just about establishing profiles?

 

Ad hominem...?

[John A Stuart]

I can't make it out either George. Something like 隅田ち提, Sumida (this 3rd katagana must be wrong) sa(geru). John

[george trotter]

John...your Sumi (also GU) character seems right...seems to be fit better than my Wata...I don't think I can go any further on the box inscription...a pity, it might have clarified some of the above discussion.

George.

[reinhard]

You surprise me, Reinhard

You seem unwilling to present any evidence for your assertions apart form vague criteria apparently only evident to you.

 

You may see it that way, Ford. This might be the trouble with any debate about sense of aesthetics. To me design and execution of this particular tsuba look plain, uninspired, boring. It is also a pompous and pretty spectacular tsuba at first sight, quite skillfully executed, just the way most Westerners like(d) it. We could go on discussing this endlessly, but I'd prefer not to. If it starts with a 13th century picture scroll where will it end? Links to Japan's culture and arts of a thousand years, just to prove me wrong? I won't play the game on the basis of this particular tsuba. Obviously it is supposed to be the only remaining example of a forgotten master.

 

Your quote posted here sounds rather disrespectful to me, like another one mentioning the advantages of knowing about Japanese paintings, implying I don't know anything about it. Well, you're wrong. See, I really acknowledge your technical skills, but apart from that I'm not one of Ford Hallam's disciples, bowing their heads to the ground as soon as they hear their master's name. I don't expect you to agree with me in any particular question, but I presume a minimal respect given.

 

I agree to disagree one more time. Let's leave it that.

 

reinhard

[drbvac]

Come on guys lighten up, just opinions and this was very instructive till it seemed to get personal

[sanjuro]

Guys...

Like a lot of others here I learn a great deal from the discussions. Can we keep it to that please? We have seen enough threads locked lately, and this one has just taken a dive toward that same oblivion.

Excuse my indelicacy but this isnt a pissing contest, its a forum for discussion not personal opinion of other members.

 

Sorry Mods...................... PM your chastisements if I'm out of line here.

[george trotter]

Just on the point of "proof" (not to throw petrol on a fire), but I remember the rule of empirical proof at university...it was basically that if A states a thesis it must be accompanied by "proof". If B presents an antithesis, it must be accompanied by "proof". If A & B can accommodate valid aspects of each other's "proof" they have a harmonious synthesis...if no, they have revolution and war!

 

I hate to harp on and on on this...but it would help (me anyway) if someone was able to translate the hakogaki. Maybe if Moriyama san could take a look we can find out if there is an important clue to the where/when/who of this tsuba. The where/when/who might assist this debate to a peaceful conclusion.

 

Regards,

George.

[sensei215]

Hopefully this doesn't cast oil on the fire but I picked up the sho tonight. Definitely shows dedication we had over 23" of snow yesterday. I felt like a little kid going to the candy store. I think this might answer if this was done by a Japanese artist with a traditional mind set. At least from my humble opinion. I appreciate all the interest this has created and like with all human things there can be a difference of opinion as there will be when judging art. As long as we keep it friendly.

Best regards,

Tim S

 

I think that if the rest of the box can be translated it certainly would help.

[Ford Hallam]

My dear Reinhard,

 

I'm honestly sorry if you feel I've been disrespectful of you. This was never my intention at all. I was merely engaging in a robust discussion with you and assumed you felt the same.

 

The comment of mine you find offensive was merely to suggest that it would be more productive in terms of understanding each others view if you were to substantiate what you see. Simply repeating an opinion without providing any sort of example to help illustrate your point is very frustrating because it doesn't allow me to really understand what you are seeing. Just calling it pompous is almost meaningless as I just can't apply that word in this context. If you were to flesh out your view I might be able to form a better picture of what you mean.

 

Similarly, my remarks about the artistic background of these works was not to imply that you were in any way deficient in awareness or knowledge at all. Again, it was just to make the case that no artistic object ( like a tsuba) can be fully appreciated without this reference.

 

My intention in adding to this discussion, as with all the topics I care to respond to, was merely to provide some ideas that might otherwise not have come to light. I saw this tsuba quite differently to you, and some others to various degrees, and so I felt my "alternative" view might provide some fresh appraisal.

 

I feel I've presented some points and illustrations that help provide some context to my observations. I sincerely hope no-one does touch their head to the floor at the mention of my name ( it would make reading my posts awkward ) but rather considers what I'd suggested along with all the other views. People will make up their own minds and add those aspects of this discussion that they find reasonable to their further appreciation of the subject.

 

Personally, I don't think it really matters all that much about what the final answer is, or who is right or wrong. I think that the exercise was worth the effort simply for the way it allowed us to look more critically at the work in question.

 

Anyway, my apologies again. I honestly had no intention of insulting you.

 

sincerely,

 

ford

[george trotter]

Hi Tim,

What a charming pair of tsubas...and what a wonderful artistic "conceit" (that's an art critic word for "concept" :-)). Galloping horse on one and hoofprints, dust and leaves on the other...fantastic. I wish I had them...no wonder you truged through sleet and snow to get them...fabulous!

 

Was there a box with this one to...?

 

Regards and envy,

George.

[John A Stuart]

If nothing else, it is rather smart. John

[george trotter]

I notice the nakago ana of the sho-tsuba has been punched...it seems to indicate that this tsuba was once mounted on a sword... this wouldindicate it is not just an "export piece'...or were export pieces given dummy punch marks?

 

Just wondering out loud...

George.

[John A Stuart]

George, these tagane-mei can be for fitting a tsuba but also purely artistic as well. John

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello, http://72.5.117.144/fif=fpx/sc5/SC51220.fpx&obj=iip,1.0&wid=400&cvt=jpeg

[Nobody]

The label on the box of tsuba says their motif.

隅田之堤 – the banks of (River) Sumida

I am not sure about the 3rd character, but it is not important to guess the meaning.

 

At first, I thought the box is not for the first tsuba with a horse. But when I saw the second small tsuba, I understood the motif of the pair.

[John A Stuart]

Aha, It would have been easier to write 墨堤. I understand the cherry blossom viewing along the Sumida River, but, fail to see how the tsuba relate to cherry blossoms or a river. I think I am missing how these connect, Koichi san. That is not unusual for me though. :lol: John

[docliss]

In spite of the tendency for soft-metal tsuba to readily undergo surface changes in the area of the seppa after mounting, I can see no indication on either the dai or the shō tsuba that they were ever mounted on a sword.

 

And in reply to George’s query - as John has already stated – yes, and sekigane also.

 

John L.

[IanB]

All, I've read this thread with great interest and enjoyed the banter. But, now that the tsuba for the daito has been revealed, it makes sense. The theme shared by the tsuba relate to the famous poem (?) about not tying your spirited horse to the cherry tree since it will cause the blossoms to fall. This theme was used as a kamon by the Tanaka family and others. One other factor is also pertinent. The Japanese were perfectly aware of Western horses and how they looked. Two were brought back from India by the the Tensho Mission to Europe. Tokugawa Yoshimune requested the VOC to send him Arab horses as a gift, even specifying the face markings they should have. Five horses were delivered in 1725 and even more in subsequent years. By the time these tsuba were made, the traditional Mongolian stock was all but bred out and the new horse was taller and far more Western looking. I appreciate that this does not mean that all artists altered the way they rendered horses, but at least they had the models before them to give their depictions a more Western emphasis.

Ian Bottomley

[Jean]

Just for the pleasure, horses :