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E-Bay Minamoto Kiyomaro


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Greetings all, I have been drooling for about a week now on this beauty for sale by Komonjo...

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/J471-Japanese-Samur ... 2558703aeb

 

The little I have read rates Kiyomaro as a Top-Rated smith. I have also read some past threads on NMB about his works and style of Mei. After some research I was able to come to the conclusion that this sword is 99% correct. Just for the sake of discussion, what is your opinion ? I have dealt with Mike in the past and he allways deals with top notch merchandise. I just might jump on this one. Regards, Mario P.

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Mario,

 

I wish I had a dollar for every one of the times folks have asked me privately about Komonjo auctions. Having said that, and in consideration that this seller is pretty visable to a community of knowledgable folks that just *love* to buy genuine works at low relative prices, do you really believe that you can buy a genuine Kiyomaro from an often discussed dealer on the world's largest buying venue,..... for a song? :crazy:

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Mario,

A reasonable price for a 73 cm katana by Kiyomaro, if the mei is correct, would be something like $200,000 - $300,000. No knowledgeable seller will let one go for less than 8K. This would be a great sword for someone who wants a big name to brag about and isn't concerned that it probably isn't real.

Grey

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"If the question concerns the authenticity of the signature, then the answer is "Who knows?" Unless you witness the sword being made and the signature inscribed, no one can tell with absolute certainty that the signature is genuine. But, fortunately, there are people who spend years studying swords, and they offer their opinions in the form of kanteisho (evaluation paper). In the absence of such a paper, it would be safe to assume that every signature is false. Experts suggest that more than 80% of the signatures are not genuine, and the percentage gets higher on famous and popular swordsmiths. The lack of kanteiso or having a gimei (false signature), however, does not mean that the sword is worthless. Far from it. False signatures are often added years, if not centuries after the blade was made, and that is no fault of the original swordsmith. If you appreciate the blade for itself, then the signature should not matter, in my opinion. If, on the other hand, you are buying the "name" and not the blade, then you should be prepared to pay dearly for it. Having a kanteisho does not necessarily guarantee that the signature is genuine. Some kanteisho are issued by questionable organizations, and reputable organizations too are known to have issued some questionable papers in the past. So what is one to do? Unless you have trained eyes and the confidence in your ability to judge blades, it would be safe to shop only for a swod that "speaks" to you and is within the price range that you can justify to yourself". >>>>>This is what the seller of this sword has to say about signatures on the swords he sells....in his own words. This statement is true for just about any signature on any antique (and most newer ones also) Japanese item as far as I can see, if you like the item and can afford it and it it did not have that particular signature would you still buy it? I believe if the item you buy is actually authentic and as old as you believe it is you are doing pretty good!

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Mario,

 

What you need is to stroll along the different commercial sites listed by Dr. Stein (the Japanese ones) just to be aware of prices

 

To paraphrase Darcy, seeing a Kiyomaro on sale is like seeing a ghost ..... These blades belongs to individuals and never reach the market when for sale.......

 

Except for a few swords (I am thinking of the Go Yoshiro's worth around 200k$) the best ones never reach the public

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Peter

 

when i first viewed the sword i also thought new sword, in last ten or twenty years.

 

someone posted this pix before, not sure which was the shoshin or if there all gimei.

 

the sword its self looks worth the starting price, just remove the mei?

post-21-14196775075357_thumb.jpg

post-21-14196775092384_thumb.jpg

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That gives me something to think about since longtime. There is a sword by a swordsmith, very famous already during his lifetime, for instance this Wakizashi by Kiyomaro. This sword was a bit later perhaps equipped with a new Koshirae, the Nakago got defaced by drilling an additional mekugi-ana. One would think it is easier to work with the existing one...and that craftsmen at that time had enough sword-connoisseur-ship to avoid such a doing. Unfortunately not... :dunno:

Eric

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That gives me something to think about since longtime. There is a sword by a swordsmith, very famous already during his lifetime, for instance this Wakizashi by Kiyomaro. This sword was a bit later perhaps equipped with a new Koshirae, the Nakago got defaced by drilling an additional mekugi-ana. One would think it is easier to work with the existing one...and that craftsmen at that time had enough sword-connoisseur-ship to avoid such a doing. Unfortunately not... :dunno:

Eric

 

 

I agree, i could never understnd why a anakago is butchered in this way. Surely it is easy enough for a craftsman to use the original mekugi -ana!

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Hi Eric, I wonder if in the past, the nakago was given so much emphasis as today by collectors whose main desire is to have representative examples as close to the original condition as possible. I am thinking that their conception is that the nakago is a functional part of the sword and if alteration is required by necessity whether personal or legislated it wasn't perceived as great an evil as we now see it. How many swords have we seen that have been shortened for one reason or another. I do not think it was because new ones of appropriate length couldn't be made or afforded, but, because the utilisation of the blade was paramount. If we were to come across a rare tachi, pristine and ubu and someone was to suggest it be shortened to uchigatana type and remounted, we would be scandalised. However, in those times it would be thought of as just a way to keep a sword a current and vital weapon. Suriage shoudn't be thought of as such a great defect I'm thinking, given the sword itself is kizu free. John

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I don't know how many times this topic has gone around this board about signatures and papers but the bottom line as with buying anything anywhere - buyer beware. Research, know your product and the market. If it sounds too good to be true it is. I know - heard it before - been there done it.

 

However , that said as it relates to Mike - He is not misrepresenting anything - he states it is signed and dated and it is. He doesn't say it is not gimei but he certainly goes out of his way to make sure buyers understand he is not guaranteeing the signature nor does he ever.

 

For many of us in the middle of no-where relatively speaking and the only chance to even see nihinto in person is in my den or when travelling afar , old e-bay has given a huge opportunity to access not only Japanese blades but tons of other stuff we just can't get elsewhere. It also is a good learning experience seeing what is offered and to be honest there are only about 4 dealers I ever deal with anyway.

 

I guess other than my first point the last one would be don't beat up too badly on all the dealers on e-bay especially MIke. The obvious crooks are obvious for the initiated and if they are not obvious stay away. I bought a print from a very reputable dealer on 5th avenue in New York with great provenance and certificates up the ying yang and it still ended up being a fake!

 

If you like the look of the blade, like the price, and can live with it if you don't get what you expect - go for it! :clap:

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It is always well to remember (as some people have already pointed out), you should buy the piece for the piece, not the signature. Obviously, you get what you pay for but if you like the piece and the price, then you should have no complaints. I also think that this is a new blade, but it does look pretty good. Is it worth $7777? That is something you have to answer for yourself.

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Hi All,

 

"Bargain (i.e., questionable)" Kiyomaro show up often on Japanese auction sites, and ones that didn't sell probably end up on eBay. Here are some recent examples:

 

http://auction.jp.msn.com/item/130563809

 

http://www.bidders.co.jp/dap/sv/nor1?id ... p=y%23body

 

 

 

Also, this o-kissaki style is often marketed as "Kiyomaru utsushi." They are not selling too well in Japan recently, however:

 

http://auction.jp.msn.com/item/130610303

 

http://auction.jp.msn.com/item/129550098

 

http://www.bidders.co.jp/item/127317712

 

 

 

Swords are like any other merchandise: when there is a price differential, the goods flow from low-price market to higher-price market. During the good ol' bubble years of the '80s when sword prices soard in Japan, many swords "went home" to Japan from US and abroad. Now that the market in Japan is bad (an understatement perhaps), we see more swords flowing out from Japan, especially the ones that do not sell well. If China's economy continues to grow relative to the rest of the world, and more "rich" Chinese enter the antiques market, we may see more real Nihonto flow to China while their cheap pseudo Nihonto continue to flood the market. Well, let them buy up all the gimei blades, and that will help clean up the market.

 

My two yen's worth,

 

Kaji

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