Why do I even bother...

[oneshot onekill]

I'd like opinions from the REAL experts here on this...

Any time I see a Japanese sword on another site or for sale somewhere I always like to look at it and express my opinions whether I'm interested or not. Today I was looking on Snipers Hide for a new stock for one of my rifles. Someone there was selling his Damascus Bowie collection and a Japanese Sword. Of course, I had to take a look at the sword. Based on what I've seen and learned the sword is most likely a Chinese reproduction. I'm including 2 of the pictures from the ad to get opinions from...

If I'm wrong in determining this is a fake can someone enlighten me? I PM'd the seller to tell him he may be misrepresenting the sword and of course, he got mad... Explained to me in no uncertain terms that I didn't know what I was talking about and he had several "experts" authenticate it for him before he sold it. Why do I even bother...

[Grey Doffin]

No idea why you bother but that is an obvious Chinese fake.

Grey

[cisco-san]

For me without doubt Chinese fake !!

[Roger Wildcat]

It supposed to be machine stamp, right? But it got Damascus pattern and very poor one at that. Yep it a fake.

 

I think I saw a picture of this sword in the fake sword page of this website. Look at top of page for the link.

[george trotter]

Hi

This thread brings up a matter that has affected me in the past. Would it be appropriate to the topic, and the board, to ask why people who have no intention of bidding in on-line auctions, contact and notify sellers of pertinant information regarding their sale item? I have watched an interesting sword in the past, only to watch it withdrawn at the last moment because someone "donated" information about the maker. Another time there was an unidentified blade that was attracting no bids...I was intending to pounce when a non-interested viewer supplied the mei and period information, which attracted a number of bids at the closing hours to double the price...I can understand exposing fakes, but why educate unknown sellers and buyers to the detriment of quiet, knowledgeable bidders...especially as they have no intention of bidding themselves? Is there a place for this behavior or is it just "spoiling"?

 

George (twice outpounced)

[doug e lewis]

as they do not want to "pounce" on an item, all i can think of is that 1) they think they are doing a favor to the seller, and don't consider that it may affect the price or availabiity; the Good Samaritan rational, or 2) they are evil and enjoy scewing things up for serious bidders; purhaps even have some moral objection to selling weapons [even antiques] on line.

 

either way, George, it really sucks. i did not know that was being done as i haven't looked at ebay to bid in years, and only went there resently to reseach going prices for a Vendo 86 coke machine i have and want to sell [ya got to come get it, though]

 

good hunting for your next pounce.

 

doug e

[Bazza]

...and only went there resently to research going prices...

doug e

A Freudian slip???

BaZZa.

[reinhard]

why educate unknown sellers and buyers to the detriment of quiet, knowledgeable bidders?

 

What exactly do you think is NMB made for?

 

reinhard

[Jean]

What exactly do you think is NMB made for?

 

Sometimes, Reinhard, I really wonder after looking at some posts .....

[doug e lewis]

yes baZZa, my slip was showing. but so very apt as i read over what i wrote. :lol:

 

it felt good.

doug e

[george trotter]

Hi Reinhard,

I think the NMB is here to promote discussion on Japanese swords of all types and periods and to help people and educate people interested in their studies of these and related items.

I realise that we on NMB can't always tell the motives of the people who ask questions here so we take them at face value and answer their questions for them (if we are able)...whether these answers end up helping or hindering a far-away commercial transaction later on we can't know. It's a chance we take...but I think very few of us like to intentionally get involved in providing information that may be used in a commercial matter...indeed, even within NMB, some menbers won't even provide the slightest details about themselves when making comments here on Nihonto related items...for fear (I suppose) of repercussions...that's why the hide their nationality, location and identity behind avatars. I would suppose that such people are aware of the problems that can arise from giving advice/information...that is why they also usually restrict their comments to answering questions asked here rather than offering information to the NMB members un-asked.

So you will notice that my question was about activity outside this NMB...about people volunteering information to ebay sellers that was not asked for...an intervention in a far-away financial transaction that has an adverse effect on one party,

and I asked the NMB members their feelings on this...may I ask what your opinion is regarding the matter I raised?

 

Regards,

George.

[doug e lewis]

Hi George,

 

while the un-solicited giving of information to a seller about an item may have a negative impact on another person who may have had an interest in the item, as long as that information is reasonably accurate, i don't really have any big ethical issue with it. giving false information to a seller to give oneself some sort of preceived advantage is unethical.

 

i understand that you saw an item that you thought was mis-identified and so wanted to "pounce" on what you saw as an opportunity. nothing wrong with that. a seller should know what they are selling, and if not, all the better for someone more enlightened.

 

that someone decided to enlighten the seller, un-solicited, is unfortunate and really not in the spirit of an auction. part of the find is finding a "deal". why they would do this is beyond me, unless they get some perverse glee from scewing with people. if you know the seller that is, of course, a different matter. a friend would help a friend and prevent them from making a regretable error, unasked.

 

IMHO you can not force someone to be ethical. all that can be done is encourage good behavior, provided peer pressure, and lead by example.

 

by the way, i am American, live in the High Mojave Desert of California near Joshua Tree National Monument, am 59 years old, and use the dragon as my avatar because 1) i like it -- off a T-shirt i got in Soucilito 30 years ago, and 2) i am not that good looking, so do not want to offend anyone with a picture of my red headed (hence shojo), aged apperance.

 

DOUG E

[Stephen]

maybe fix the pix so one doesn't have to go into the next room to read it all.

 

Doug e

miss Giant Rock area near your neck of the woods or should say cactus,

is that area still accessible or did the military close it down? Would like to get back there before I go.

[george trotter]

Hi Doug,

My query wasn't directed at you personally (sorry for that), but to the providing of unsolicited info to commercial scenes generally. I think your comments above are very reasonable and balanced. I see your points about a possible sharing of info with a seller who is a friend . I also see your point about preventing fraud. I only raised the point about why someone would give unsolicited information into an auction when not interested in bidding themselves...it is hard to explain...I wondered what members thought...my query only originated from the general thread here. BTW I'm not crying about being "outpounced" (that happens), but it is a pain how it happens in this unexplainable way.

My mention of avatars just emphasised the caution exercised by some NMB members when on line here...which kind of indicates that there can be consequences for information given that may prove damaging in some way even here on this board...

so no offence intended...I certainly wasn't saying that NMB does this.

From the responses it seems that there is a level of annoyance about this practise, but there are also some reasonable exceptions as to why it can be acceptable...sounds like most things doesn't it.

FYI...I'm an Aussie, 62...my wife is from Illinois and my kidz are dual US/Australian citizens...let's keep both flags flying!

Regards,

George

Stephen, don't put that visit off...go and do it mate!

[doug e lewis]

george, i did not take it personlly [ just having some fun with a post], but i certainly feel your frustration when you see an item, go to bid on it only to find it has been taken down be cause some "helpful" person whispered some supposed "secret knowledge" in the sellers ear. a seller should do their own research, even to asking questions of NMB members.

 

but as i indicated, there is not much you, me, NMB, or anyone can do about, other that to act rightously, and trust the it will all turn out good in the end.

 

Yes stephen, i live in Johnson Valley [as noted under my dragon], about 6 miles west of Landers and Giant Rock. Marines are being held off for now. Makes all my critters happy; just finished feeding breakfast to three of my local coyotes, in fact. Should you have time on your trip [going to Australia?] please stop by. we can fill a cooler and go the Rock to watch the UFOs circle for landing [air strip still there].

 

doug e

[Bruno]

I asked the NMB members their feelings on this...may I ask what your opinion is regarding the matter I raised?

 

Regards,

 

I 100% agree with you George about people giving non asked informations to Ebay sellers. I have seen that a couple of time, people translating mei and date for the seller to help him completing its listing.I can understand that some people can't help themselves tranlating a mei because it is a fun game. At the same time, it is obvious that these same people are not interested in purchasing the sword they are giving the information for.So in a way a is a bit selfish against potential buyers, because once mei and date tranlated, the price increase. As far I am concerned, it belongs to the seller to collect infos before selling if he wants to make more money, if he does not take the pain to do it, well why helping him? When I sell a sword(and I did), I make a researsh before to get the more details I can and make the listing more attractive.

 

With this kind of behavior, you help someone to earn more money(seler) and make another one spend more(buyer), there is no altruism in that.

 

I am sure that if one day, anyone of us interested in bidding on a sword without any infos, but well identify by itself as signed by....and dated.....will be pissed of if the seller adds during the auction these details, gently given to him by someone without any intention to buy the sword.

 

Just my humble point of view.

[doug e lewis]

George, just re-read your last post and i thought that one good reason for hiding identity is to prevent ripoffs and theft. think of the several thefts of swords from homes the past few years.

 

i agree very much with you, Bruno

 

i've wanted to go to Australia for years, ever since i started exchanging e-mails with Rich Turner snd joined NMB. never met an Aussie i didn't like. i know there must some bad eggs there, but they sure keep their heads down. would be fun, if all could afford it, to have a NMB nihonto conference there. but where? Melbourne? Sidney? Perth? Darwin?

 

and are there any NMB members under 40?

 

doug e

[doug e lewis]

by the by: for anyone interested in Giant Rock

 

http://www.lucernevalley.net/giantrock/

 

doug e

[reinhard]

may I ask what your opinion is regarding the matter I raised?

 

Hi George,

 

Basically I agree with your statement, but since NMB and sword trade are almost impossible to separate, I'm trying to differ between professional dealers guided by commercial interests only and amateurs. I'm not willing to do homework for the former but am ready to help the latter. The amateur can be an enthusiastic beginner as well as an overcharged heir knowing nothing about NihonTo at all. He has a right of getting a reasonable answer as well. I will not provide him with answers unasked, but I don't care either if my post on NMB gets to him by other ways. Personally I'm favouring more transparency of personalities and their intentions on NMB and a separation of interests here, but this is not my cup of tea. Brian and his team have to decide.

Since informations gained from NMB are dispersing into business through all sorts of channels, inside and outside of NMB have become very difficult to discern. In the end it seems only natural to me that everybody is trying to get advantage from this board. Why protect some ("quiet, knowledgeable bidder") and leave the others?

 

regards

 

reinhard

[george trotter]

Hi all,

thanks for the discussion. It is impossible of course to control the spread/use of information once it is on the web and it is not possible to stop people communicating knowledge, even if we'd like to keep it quiet until we've "pounced" on that unrecognized bargain on ebay.

I guess I was just wondering what motivates people to input "pure information" into auction items when they have no intention of buying...and this thread has put up a few answers to that question...there is no cure for this either...we just have to live with it. Thanks to all.

George.

[oneshot onekill]

All I can say is...WOW!!! First, it wasn't an Ebay auction. It was a member of a Sniper forum that was posting things for sale. Not an auction at all. The seller wanted $350 for something that wasn't worth that much because it was fake. I was trying to keep a fellow forum member from making a mistake that would damage his reputation. Second, I believe in sharing information if I have correct information on something incorrectly represented. I have only EVER done this on OVER-PRICED items. On under-priced items I have the same attitude as the rest of you... BUY IT!!! Or bid on it. But don't ruin it for someone else!

 

Just thought I needed to clear that up...

[oneshot onekill]

Let me make sure this is clear also. On the original post I never mentioned auctions. Only other sites that had Japanese sword "for sale". There's a huge difference!

[doug e lewis]

Hi Oneshot,

 

please excuse my ingnorance, and even though i could guess, the term "Sniper forum" is new to me and i ask that you explain it and describe how they work.

 

i was confused about auctions and private seller sites; i apologize.

i agree with position re correcting false or misleading information, especially to protect the reputation of one of our own.

 

thank you

doug e

[oneshot onekill]

The forum I was referring to is called "Snipers Hide". It's a forum dedicated to "long-range Precision Tactical Shooting" (mostly bolt action rifles). There is a "for sale" section where members sell or trade items (not just guns). That's where the sword was for sale. If someone on this forum was selling something other than a sword and I knew they were incorrect about it, I would do the same thing. Oh, one other thing. My information was PM'd (Private Message) to the seller. Not blurted out on the open forum.

 

John

[george trotter]

Hi John,

I just tuned back in....without reading all the above again, I think I'm the one who introduced the word "auction" into the thread...no distortion of your words or any offence intended...your comments just led to a parallel slant. I think many comments have been made and your reasoning and motive for "outing" the junk fake sword seems to be well accepted as legit by all...I think you did the right thing and your motives were honourable...so sorry for any bad vibes...not intended at all...I raised the issue of non-bidding people providing unsolicited information (to on-line auctions) that is not addressing any wrongful actions...or helping a friend...just "interfering" by altering the outcome. I asked what members thought about this...for that matter...what do you think of this behavior in this situation?

 

Regards,

George.

[bluboxer]

Well this is a civil discussion,I am impressed. I think the last time this topic came up (unsolicited input) the poster was castigated and likened to someone that steals from elderly women at garage sales. :lol:

 

Alan

[oneshot onekill]

Hi John,

I just tuned back in....without reading all the above again, I think I'm the one who introduced the word "auction" into the thread...no distortion of your words or any offence intended...your comments just led to a parallel slant. I think many comments have been made and your reasoning and motive for "outing" the junk fake sword seems to be well accepted as legit by all...I think you did the right thing and your motives were honourable...so sorry for any bad vibes...not intended at all...I raised the issue of non-bidding people providing unsolicited information (to on-line auctions) that is not addressing any wrongful actions...or helping a friend...just "interfering" by altering the outcome. I asked what members thought about this...for that matter...what do you think of this behavior in this situation?

 

Regards,

George.

 

Hi George,

It's really no big deal and I'm not upset or offended. Hell, I've made out myself scrounging for deals in areas that I have more than average knowledge. I think Ebay is one of the hardest places to score a deal because so many people look at Ebay and no matter what you know, there's Ten-Thousand people watching Ebay that know as much or more than you do!

 

I have, on many occasions, emailed a seller that was misrepresenting an item (not on ebay or any other "auction" site) and trying to sell it for MORE than it was worth. Believe it or not, I've received more positive responses than negative ones. You only get a negative response from someone who is knowingly trying to deceive potential buyers. Honest sellers are more inclined to thank you for the information and pass it along to potential buyers as an "opinion" they feel obligated to share in the interest of "No surprises"... or research what you've told them and adjust their price accordingly.

[oneshot onekill]

I will say that knowledge about Japanese Swords is by far the hardest knowledge I've been able to gain... And I'll be the FIRST to tell you that I haven't even begun to scratch the surface when it comes to these Wonderfully Elegant Pieces of Military History! The fine members here deserve almost all of the credit for what I do know... I just wanted to thank you all.

 

John

[doug e lewis]

HI John,

 

it would seem that giving a seller a "heads up" about an item they are selling is one way to determine if they are true & honest, or just scamers and flim flam artists. you could then note they seller --- either way --- and proceed from there.

 

by the by --- what was the lonest successful shot you have taken [at a target -- anything else would be classified, right?]?

 

doug e

[oneshot onekill]

1983... About 760yds. With an M40A1.