Contemporary tsuba...can they be valid?

[reinhard]

No, if you read my posts, including the segment you quote here, you'll see that I speak of "strength of reasoning and clarity of articulation in one's opinion," which is not a "call for objectivity."

 

As to your other comment, surely you realize that the majority of Japanese themselves know nothing of "Japanese criteria of quality" when it comes to the "classic" arts. Everyone, Japanese or otherwise, has "a long way to go" in learning aesthetic concepts in the Japanese sensibility as manifest in the sword arts. "True mastery," when we are speaking specifically of aesthetic assessment capability, is an exceedingly elusive thing, and it remains unclear who decides when someone has attained "true mastery" in this skill. I have no idea what you mean by "[t]heir Western point of view is obsolete anyway." Can you clarify? Obsolete? In what specific context? According to what criteria?

 

Your last statement is so bizarre and 18th-century in its sentiments that it's hard to take seriously.

 

Steve,

 

I'm sorry for the lack of clarity in my post. What I meant was:

Reasoning and argumentation need a foundation. There must be impartial parameters to start with. Most of these parameters have been established a long time ago as far as the "classic" Japanese arts are concerned. Asking for individual choice to build reasoning upon is what I meant by "cry for democracy". I have to admit the term was not well chosen, but reasoning without or beyond established parameters is redundant, no matter how strong the chain of logic may be. Unlike modern art, the arts of the sword leave us with hardly any room for setting our own parameters.

What I understood from your posts so far is a strong desire to establish your opinion/personal preference by "strength of reasoning", but I wonder what the underlying parameters are? You consider "third-class Momoyama iron" (whatever that means) superior to "the vast majority of Edo Kinko" (also a quite murky expression, don't you think?). It's hard to believe, you are considering these matters so simple. Is it just sublime art from vital Momoyama period vs plain craftsmanship from degenerate Edo period? And what is your judgement based on? Over-simplification makes it hard to discuss.

 

I'm well aware of the fact, that many, if not most Japanese people have little or no affinity to, nor knowledge of their cultural heritage. Therefore I'm not talking of any mysterious, innate ability, given to Japanese people to understand the arts of the sword, but of those Japanese, who are interested in the matter and were encouraged to go this way from early age on (like a good friend of mine, who grew up as son of a well-known collector and sword-dealer). They have a great advantage compared to Westerners, who are discovering NihonTo at a comparatively late moment in their life, handicaped by their "cultural imprint" too. Once in a while I notice for myself that I have to get rid again of some "Western attitudes" towards Japanese arts. It's always a small step forward, although there are gaps I will probably never be able to fill.

 

I understand you are getting tired of this thread. I hope you don't mind.

 

best regards

 

reinhard

[Ford Hallam]

Actually, the point of the mei on your tsubas is interesting. What do you put on your work? Could you give us a few words on your mei? I am way out of touch with modern developments in Japanese-Western art connections...is yours a case like Keith Austin where (I think) his sensei conferred a Japanese art name on him which entitled him to use kanji to sign his work, or...?

 

Regards,

George

 

Hi George,

 

I think the matter of how non-Japanese working in classical Japanese fields sign their work is always going to be a tricky one. Ultimately it must be for the individual and their teacher to decide.

 

In my case, I was advised by my teacher and his colleagues. Adopting a Japanese Go simply seemed too affected for me... I have never felt like I needed that sort of label to validate what I'm about. I'm not suggesting others who do take that option feel that way...only that that was how it would have felt had I gone for a traditional metalworkers mei.

 

We simply decided I should sign with the sound of my name. My teacher (Izumi Koshiro Sensei) selected 3 suitable kanji that phonetically read Fo-O-Do and have the auspicious meaning; "walking in the kingly/heavenly road"

The tsuba I made prior to my first trip to Japan, in 1993, are all signed with a simple monogram that comprises my initials but looks vaguely like a kanji...sort of :?

 

regards,

 

Ford

[Bazza]

I'm a bit in Henry Wilson's camp here, now some pages back - and as Pete Klein eloquently put it "my brain hurts". It is a long time since I left university and all that wonderful reading that underpins the stimulating discussion between Ford and Steve. However, in the essence of simplicity Franco earlier hit the nail on the head. In matters Nihonto, Japan is the homeland of our beloved art and the arbiter of "what's what" in collecting and recognition of art vs function etc etc. Even in Japan "fashion" at times dictates what is "more collectible" - for example, suguha vs choji midare... And I believe the revisionists are hard at work modifying the kantei of earlier sensei. Such is the nature of art!!! I can't pretend that I easily follow the Ford vs Steve discussion/arguments, but I can say I have enjoyed them immensely and will read and re-read them until I better understand the points.

 

Rattling around in my noggin is a memory that far, far more tsuba were made than there were ever swords to put them on. I have seen tsuba that have never been mounted in a koshirae, and a fabulous Ishiguro fuchigashira that have never adorned a tsuka. It is clear that large numbers of tosogu were made as gifts and never intended to be "used". Are these then "not tsuba" or "not fuchigashira" because they were never mounted on a sword and given as gifts wrapped in silk???

 

Hi Steve,

I do have some initial thoughts that we might be able to build on and begin to formulate some sort of workable framework. I'll pm you with some ideas in a little while.

 

I hope the PM exchanges between Ford and Steve conclude in an entente cordiale and are published here to give us a plenary session of sorts to bring this most interesting and compelling thread to a fruitful conclusion.

 

Regards,

BaZZa.

[Ford Hallam]

Barry,

 

I believe Steve and I am on very good terms, our entente is very cordiale :D I, for one, even exude bonhomie

 

If our conversation yields anything that may be of interest, or use, to our members I'm sure we'll tell you all about it :D Right now though, I think we both need a break before we strain out heads again...

cheers,

 

ford

[John A Stuart]

You know, following this thread from inception, I see the issue as unresolved. Fittings, which must be rudimentarily functional, must meet certain Japanese aesthetics to be valid, there is a lot of room for innovative themes and techniques within that criterium. After all we don't want to see statue of liberty tsuba do we? As well the objective/ subjective debate isn't resolved. A true connoisseur must be objective in appraising art even though we are all driven by our subjective desire to acquire. Comparing distinctive styles to one another is a futile excercise and shows a lack of knowlege in art appreciation. About a year ago we had a discussion about 'what is art?' and the resolution was much more clearly presented than in this thread. Until one has a thorough knowlege of a subject in all its incarnations one can not objectively appreciate the art of a subject. For example saying Rembrandt's work is far better than ,say, Gaugin's shows ignorance of the tenents of art appreciation. Each were masters of their artform and media and to compare them like comparing apples with oranges. Sophistry just occludes the issue. John

[Ed]

Now that it seems this topic is nearing a close, I just want to say three cheers for such a great discussion. I was proud to see such honorable behavior, though a couple of times I thought the gloves were coming off. Although in truth I don't see where an answer was agreed upon, merely a resolve to converse further, perhaps privately. It has been a really great read and I think (hope) it has made everyone involved(readers and participants alike) stop and think about their own view of the subject.

 

For the most part I could simply copy and paste Barry's comments as they pretty much reflect my own. I too feel swords are swords, and tsuba are tsuba old or new as long as they meet at least a general criteria. Whether or not you like them or validate them is purely a personal opinion.

 

But, I do agree that personal opinion is subjective, it would seem difficult to give a objective opinion on anything in which you are involved, ie; objectivity: intentness on objects external to the mind / external reality.

 

I have owned several shinsakuto and fully appreciate modern tsuba. Again, like Barry my problem has always been that for the money I could buy a wonderful old sword or tsuba. And honestly for me, in my humble and subjective opinion, modern swords and modern iron tsuba (none I have found) do not have the quality of steel seen in the hada of older swords or tsuba.

 

There was one shinsakuto I thought I would have always kept, but alas just recently someone liked it enough to trade me a Kanemoto Tanto with koshirae and presentation box. Forfeit the new for the old ? Hell yes I traded.

 

Once again like Barry, I have contemplated one or two of Ford's tsuba that were not for sale and would love to own that Tiger one. I always liked the one I think he modeled it after.

 

I am including photos of two modern iron tsuba made by Mr. Tomoaka which I like a lot.

 

If our conversation yields anything that may be of interest, or use, to our members I'm sure we'll tell you all about it.

In closing I hope we will see follow up on any revelations brought about by this debate.

[Nostro Titus]

Firstly, this thread ranks among the more informative and insightful.

From my side there isn't much more to add, only the following.

The mountings, including tsuba were made in a cultural environment that in many ways differ from the world today. Tsuba from the Muromachi and Edo already show signs of a different approach in subject matter and methods of execution and materials used. It would seem natural that contemporary tsuba would differ from their historical counterparts as they are made by artists that are trying to express themselves within the context of their culture and personal experience. The historical tsuba would have been something fresh and new, adding accent to the mountings and uniform. Like all things new, eventually the novelty wears off, it becomes a norm and loses some of the strength of expression. There are exceptions to this rule obviously.

There is nothing wrong in the copying of historical pieces in order to gain a deeper understanding of the mindset and techniques of the historical artist, but even then there will be a bit of the copier expressed in the workpiece due to his interpretation of the item copied.

My opinion is that there will always be a place for modern tsuba and that they will mostly be judged by the way the artist reflects his ideas (and school of thought) within his current environment, something that a blind copy or cast replica will lack.

Regarding the functionality of tsuba and the protection of hand theory (incidentally, has anyone ever thought about it acting as a marker when you draw the sword, pretty much saying 'grip stops here, scabbard starts below', just a personal hypothesis). I am not in a position to comment on the Japanese sword in martial usage, but as I am heavily involved in the teaching of European swordsmanship a close parallel was the cross protecting the hand theory. In reality the instance of a blow striking the cross is very rare (there are situations where it is actively used in offense or defense). It does however serve a a good barrier when your wrist or hand is attacked by someone not stepping offline. I am guessing that the tsuba would be helpful in such a situation , whether by design or convenient coincidence. Trained people tend to step offline to cut to the hands and arms, completely bypassing the cross though. (I should leave this bit for the actual Japanese sword-art practitioners, I believe that includes Ford?).

That aside, in the end as long as there are artists producing unique workpieces regardless of their area of specialization in style or materials, there will be people interested in the pieces because something in it piques their interest or resonates with their perception of art. A given item can mean many things to many people, that tells us more about the collector though and not the artist. In essence some people judge art the same way they judge people, seniority and age counts.

 

Just my humble bit.

 

Marius

[David Price]

In reality the instance of a blow striking the cross is very rare

 

The tsuba can save you fingers/hand in the makiosae (wrap block). In this block you are trying to control/deflect the opponents attach and wrap your blade around his as it passes by. If you are a bit slow, his sword will strike or glance off of your tsuba. It's saved my knuckles on more than one occasion !!

 

Dave P