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Matching numbers on fittings and blade but no arsenal stamp?

melanie

By melanie
in Military Swords of Japan

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melanie Apprentice

melanie

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We have a Kai Gunto that we have decided is such after weeks of research. It was brought back by my husband's uncle from WWII. He has long since passed away, so we had to research it instead of asking. After taking it apart, we found that the numbers on everything match - stamped number 324 (the 2 looks a little odd) - and what looks like the Japanese symbol for "big" is above the numbers on the fittings. The symbol is not on the blade, though, and there is no arsenal stamp of any kind on the blade as far as we can see. The blade is only stamped with the number 324, and it also has the number hand-written on it in some kind of black ink, in what looks like very sloppy Japanese writing. The rest of the sword is beautiful, with a very, very nice wrapping, the typical lacquered sheath (forgot what it's called...?), the leather sling and tassle still attached, and a flawless blade. It is definitely a factory-made blade, not a traditionally made one. We aren't sure what to think of it without the arsenal stamp, though. We have a gentleman who wants to purchase it, but we have no idea how much we should ask for it, and his offer is in the lower hundreds. I cannot get any pics uploaded (they all turn out blurry or too dark), and was waiting until I could, but I finally decided that I just need to ask. We are almost positive it is what we think it is, as far as matching internet photos, information, NCO tassle, and the works. So we thought we would just ask and see if anyone has any idea what it means to find matching numbers on all the pieces, including the blade, but no arsenal stamp. Does that mean it is not authentic? Or are we missing something that we should be looking for? Thanks for any help anyone can give!

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melanie Apprentice

melanie

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Here are a couple more fittings with the numbers on them. I tried to get them close enough so that you can see the symbol above the numbers, but again, not sure about the resolution. Also, on the very inside of the top of the scabbard, there is a handwritten number that looks more like 326 than 324, though it's hard to tell. It also has the symbol handwritten in it. Both are written with what looks like a very fine-tipped writing instrument (pen, marker, brush?). I took some nice pics of the entire thing apart and together as well, and I will post those as soon as I can get them onto my computer.

Thanks!

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John A Stuart

John A Stuart

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Hi Melanie, That is a Naval sword as indicated by the fittings. Kai-gunto. Likely the blade is a non-traditionally made stainless steel variation. John

BTW, there seems to be a signature but when I magnify it it pixilates. If you take a close-up of that we might be able to ID it better. J

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Grey Doffin Grand Master

Grey Doffin

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Hi Melanie,

If everything is there and in decent condition I would expect this to sell between $500 and $900, either on ebay or at a well attended gun/militaria show. I don't have a lot of experience with military sword values so someone else might have a better idea.

Grey

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Stephen Grand Master

Stephen

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John not sure if your seeing the numbers and think its a mei , i tied to blow it up as well....just the three numbers...i could be wrong.

 

Mel

 

the price is going to come down to how well the fittings are. is the saya covered with same* ?

 

looking forward to the blade condition as well ...if all very clean there going upwards to 1200. Id not ask less than a grand as of now.

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melanie Apprentice

melanie

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John - the markings you are looking at are numbers, and they are clear when not in a photo - obviously 324. That is the same number on each of the fittings as well. The fittings seem to be in really nice condition, but I am no expert. Some numbers are hard to see because of rust on the parts of the fittings that actually fit up against each other. There is no visible rust when it is assembled, but definitely some spots on the insides of the fittings.

The blade itself is beautiful. It does have one very tiny fleck on the edge that looks like a chip, not at all deep, and I don't think even a millimeter long. It is VERY sharp - we have to be really careful with it - and it doesn't appear to have been resharpened, in other words, no weird or rough spots on the edge of the blade - very clean.

 

Again, I'll borrow a better camera and take some nice pics of the rest of the sword, including a close-up of the fleck on the edge of the blade.

 

Oh, one more question: was anybody able to make out what that symbol is before the numbers on all the fittings? The closest thing I could find on all the different intepretation sites was the symbol that stands for "big" or the letter "o."

 

Thanks so much!

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melanie Apprentice

melanie

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Here are a few more photos with my camera, including a full view of the entire sword and the other side of the fittings. I tried to get a close-up of the nick, but it is honestly so small I am having a really hard time getting it to focus in on it. The scanner seems to do the best with it, so maybe you can make it out by zooming in. Oh, and the yellow sticker - that came from whoever settled his estate and then passed the sword on to my husband. I have removed it in the full-view pic.

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Stephen Grand Master

Stephen

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dont know how my last post got bumped maybe you posted at the same time,

 

Stainless steel is not as well thought of as other hand forged blades.

this may have been water tempered as i think i see nice white nei in the hamon. better pix would tell.

the leather tassle is off a NCO and should be sold by its self on egrab.

 

the same (ray skin) on the saya is in good shape. as before id not take less than a grand, on the ebay im thinking Military collectors would take it well over that.

 

edit ....new pix added while i was posting....youll have to get better pix of the mark...does in look like somthing is inside the circle?

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melanie Apprentice

melanie

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No, there is nothing inside of the circle. And the circle itself is very, very faint, which is why I cannot tell whether it is a mark or a scratch. It is not a perfect circle, but just a tad oval in shape. I tried to get a better picture of it, but it is so faint, that that is the best I can do. It almost looks like it could have been scratched in by a pin, it is so thin. Don't know if that helps any... :-/

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melanie Apprentice

melanie

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There is rust on both sides of the hole and inside it, and also at the very tip of the tang. There are also some tiny spots of rust up closer to the hilt, but could these have come from the fittings? It has been in near pristine climate conditions since he brought it back - they took good care of their things - and then, since it's been here, it's been in a climate controlled room in our house. I have no idea - does stainless ever rust? The areas of rust are in places where moisture could have accumulated (peg hole where wood was inserted, etc).

 

Also, am wondering - was anyone able to decide what the little Japanese symbol before the numbers on the fittings stands for? And is the circle just a scratch mark, or is it an attempt at a symbol? If you click on the attachment that says "little circle 3" and zoom it in, you can see the circle very well.

 

Thanks so much.

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Stephen Grand Master

Stephen

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does stainless ever rust?
No

 

i think i see it now when you said above i was looking above the hole not off to the right of it.

 

i think if you take the org pix and crop it down to the hole and not reduce the pix it should show.

 

file marks are very well done....maybe it did not get signed for one of many reasions. for the time being im going with a nice hand forged blade. what kind of steel used is hard to say other than its not stainless.

 

ill look at other smiths tonight and see how many let stocking numbers be used on the nakago.

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loiner1965 Experienced

loiner1965

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does stainless ever rust?
No

 

i think i see it now when you said above i was looking above the hole not off to the right of it.

 

i think if you take the org pix and crop it down to the hole and not reduce the pix it should show.

 

file marks are very well done....maybe it did not get signed for one of many reasions. for the time being im going with a nice hand forged blade. what kind of steel used is hard to say other than its not stainless.

 

ill look at other smiths tonight and see how many let stocking numbers be used on the nakago.

lol......stephen..................some were full stainless and some were like a mixture , i will try and find a link to how they made them salt water resistent

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