Sword markings ?

[velma1982]

Hi

 

Can anyone help me understand the characters of this sword.

[John A Stuart]

Isn't that interesting? Another Kanehisa and with kokuin. John

[Grey Doffin]

"Ozawa Kanehisa Saku" with a Kokuin. Which means, made by Ozawa Kanehisa, and kokuin is a personal seal.

Grey

[velma1982]

Thanks

 

The info was really helpful as i dont have any ref boks as yet as the sword has been passed down from my father only recently he got it from his father after the war.

 

Any more info would be greatly appreciated like dates province etc.

[Nobody]

To be accurate, the name reads Ôsawa Kanehisa (大澤兼久). He was one of WWII smiths in Seki.

[velma1982]

Thanks for the reply,

 

Can you tell me if it was a hand made blade and what it would be worth for insurance purposes also i have left the rust on the blade etc as i dont know if i should clean it or not i have heard it would take away the history of the blade?

If the rust was left on would the characters and blade deteriorate and ruin the sword?

 

Also should the blade be oiled and if so what type should i use and how should i apply it to the sword?

[Grey Doffin]

Hello,

Do not try to remove any rust; never, ever. Don't try to fix anything that you think needs fixing; you're much more likely to do damage than good.

Here is a link to a sword care and etiquette web page that should answer your questions: http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Etiquette.htm

Grey

[cisco-san]

I think it is a not traditional made blade --> typical Showato.

[loiner1965]

I think it is a not traditional made blade --> typical Showato.

not necessary...i have a kanetoshi with a seki stamp and his personal kokuin and that is traditionally made...suguhu hamon with hakikaki boshi and ko-itame hada...nothing as straight forward now in nihonto

[Bruno]

Steve,

 

"not necessary...i have a kanetoshi with a seki stamp and his personal kokuin and that is traditionally made..."

 

By traditionnaly made, do you mean hand made with tamahagane steel or hand made with standard steel?

 

Regards

[loiner1965]

Steve,

 

"not necessary...i have a kanetoshi with a seki stamp and his personal kokuin and that is traditionally made..."

 

By traditionnaly made, do you mean hand made with tamahagane steel or hand made with standard steel?

 

Regards

to be honest i do not think you can tell unless you cut the sword in two but i am not an expert in this field.....personally i would say traditionally made with western steel.

many shinto / koto made swords were made from inported steel and not tamahagane.

Japan been inporting steel from portugal since the 16th century so i believe

quick google.......Nanbantetsu or western steel was inported into Japan from portugal and holland during the late 1500s.

[Bruno]

Steve,

 

very interesting. I did not know that older swords than gunto were made with western/imported steel. I've learnt new something today!

 

I knew that Japan has been imported steel from 16 or 17 century but I did not not know this steel was use to make swords.

 

Thanks

[loiner1965]

i presume guns were the major user of western steel but swords were also made from it but i do not know of quantity compared to tamahagne....maybe the more experienced members can throw some more light on this subject and possibly documented western steeled swords pictures

[loiner1965]

http://www.japanszwaard.nl/uk/zwaarden.html

forth sword down is made from western steel

[John A Stuart]

You will find info relating to foreign steel if you search "Yasutsugu" or "nambantetsu". John

[Bruno]

Thanks John,

 

I 'll do that for sure.

 

Always interesting to learn more and more.

 

BTW, great website you show us Steve, thanks.

 

Regards

[loiner1965]

glad to be of help....its great when a very experienced member like john contributes to a thread as they can point you in the right direction and your learning curve will vastly improve

[paulb]

Steve,

Just a quick clarification. I dont beleive Koto blades were made using imported steel, certainly none of the reference books I have read have ever suggested this. If I remember correctly most of the iron imported into Japan came from the Dutch rather than the Portugese and therefore after 1600. Regarding Shinto blades its true that some smiths did incorporate imported steel in their manufacture. However this was combined with rather than in place of Tamahagane.

Showa-To were made using 9 or 10 diffrent methods ranging from Traditionally made with Tamahagane as in the Yasukuni shrine pieces to blades being formed out of single pieces of bar stock.

There has been much debate over the years regarding Arsenal stamps on Gendai-To. I think the majority view remains that swords with an Arsenal stamp are not traditionally made using Tamahagane therefore not true Nihon-To. I think this debate is likely to go on and on because as you say it is extremely difficult to tell (assuming it is possible) whether a blade was made using Tamahagane or imported iron.

[loiner1965]

http://www.ryujinswords.com/shostamp.htm

interesting reading if completely true

[loiner1965]

Steve,

Just a quick clarification. I dont beleive Koto blades were made using imported steel, certainly none of the reference books I have read have ever suggested this. If I remember correctly most of the iron imported into Japan came from the Dutch rather than the Portugese and therefore after 1600. Regarding Shinto blades its true that some smiths did incorporate imported steel in their manufacture. However this was combined with rather than in place of Tamahagane.

Showa-To were made using 9 or 10 diffrent methods ranging from Traditionally made with Tamahagane as in the Yasukuni shrine pieces to blades being formed out of single pieces of bar stock.

There has been much debate over the years regarding Arsenal stamps on Gendai-To. I think the majority view remains that swords with an Arsenal stamp are not traditionally made using Tamahagane therefore not true Nihon-To. I think this debate is likely to go on and on because as you say it is extremely difficult to tell (assuming it is possible) whether a blade was made using Tamahagane or imported iron.

i agree its like opening a big can of worms as i do not think its possible to determine what steel or what percentage is used in constructing a sword unless it was documented .

most gendaito will not be as the purist say traditionally made as in tamahagane but the steps in making will be traditional......strangely enough we know more about swords made 400 years or more ago than swords made in the last century

[paulb]

Hi Steve,

I think our mails crossed over. Yes the link you posted is interesting stuff. I think its worth differetiating beween the stamps seen.

The Showa and Seki stamps are most commonly seen and the ones typically quoted when refering to non-traditionally made.

The Star stamps have been the subject of much debate as to whether this indicated traditionally made or superior partially traditional. Somewhere within the JSSUS journals there is a detailed article on this. Likewise the Naval shrine emblem does, I believe, mean traditionally made as this was the Naval equivalent of the Yasakuni Shrine for the army.

However as a committed student of Koto I am geting well out of my comfort zone here and I am sure there are many Showa and Gendai-To collectors who can throw more light on the subject

[loiner1965]

Hi Steve,

I think our mails crossed over. Yes the link you posted is interesting stuff. I think its worth differetiating beween the stamps seen.

The Showa and Seki stamps are most commonly seen and the ones typically quoted when refering to non-traditionally made.

The Star stamps have been the subject of much debate as to whether this indicated traditionally made or superior partially traditional. Somewhere within the JSSUS journals there is a detailed article on this. Likewise the Naval shrine emblem does, I believe, mean traditionally made as this was the Naval equivalent of the Yasakuni Shrine for the army.

However as a committed student of Koto I am geting well out of my comfort zone here and I am sure there are many Showa and Gendai-To collectors who can throw more light on the subject

least likely stamp to be on a gendaito would be the seki one as i think someone on here wrote out of 100 gendaitos they will only be one with the seki arsenal stamp....i am lucky as i have one to prove it....i think showato swords are a very interesting subject as very little is known or documented due to i believe wrong information,

[Brian]

Steve,

The problem comes in when you talk about the one exception that is a Gendaito with a Seki stamp, and then say that it might be traditionally made from Western steel.

The most often used definition of Gendaito by collectors (even if not strictly true) is a Nihoto made traditionally from tamahagane. I guess this would include swords where the tamahagane was mixed with imported steel to experiment with, such as Yasutsugu. But I think it excludes WW2 swords that are not made from tamahagane. All those other methods experimented with during WW2 (list of them in F&G) are not regarded as Gendaito.

Yes, they might be allowed into Japan (with the stamp removed) but that doesn't make them Nihonto or Gendaito.

 

Brian

[loiner1965]

Steve,

The problem comes in when you talk about the one exception that is a Gendaito with a Seki stamp, and then say that it might be traditionally made from Western steel.

The most often used definition of Gendaito by collectors (even if not strictly true) is a Nihoto made traditionally from tamahagane. I guess this would include swords where the tamahagane was mixed with imported steel to experiment with, such as Yasutsugu. But I think it excludes WW2 swords that are not made from tamahagane. All those other methods experimented with during WW2 (list of them in F&G) are not regarded as Gendaito.

Yes, they might be allowed into Japan (with the stamp removed) but that doesn't make them Nihonto or Gendaito.

 

Brian

fully understand what you are saying brian...i do not know what steel the sword is made of only that its hand made and water tempered...it could be tamahagane or foreign steel or a mixture of the two...only the smith will know for sure.

i know nihonto collectors determine the word traditionally made by meaning with tamahagane steel which as you say not strictly true...they is i believe no way of knowing without destroying the sword and using scientific methods to determine what steel was used in manufacture but for arguments sake i will use the words handmade rather than traditionally made so not to cause confusion.

[b.hennick]

I would like to add to the discussion by mentioning that the last issue of the JSSUS Newsletter has an article by Francisco Couthino where he discusses the possibility of Hizento (Shinto blades) having foreign steel as their outer skin. It is an interesting read. As a Hizen collector I was fascinated to learn about the possibility of the kawagane being imported. At that time I do not think that one would consider that a traditional approach. Yet when looking back to the 1600s it seems that they did indeed make great swords with wonderful hada in the Tadayoshi school.

[loiner1965]

that sounds an interesting read barry....do you reckon the outer skin was made from inported steel because of its high carbon content or was it because it was easier to use etc..i doubt anyone will ever know why as with any steel the amount of carbon can be added or reduce depending what application it was for.....interesting discussion

[b.hennick]

The author contrasts Bungo blades and Hizen blades and makes the point that Hizento are perceived as better blades. He thinks that the Nabeshima imported steel that was used in the kawagane. I can only suggest (plug here) that you join the JSSUS and get their wonderful Newsletter. ( I happen to be the JSSUS Ombudsman and a Director.) This Newsletter was sent out with the special issue translation of the Hizen lineage. Thanks go to Roger Robertshaw for making that available to the JSSUS.

Sorry for the commercial for the JSSUS but it is only with members fees that the JSSUS can pay for the translation of work into English.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Barry, I hope to read it soon. John

[b.hennick]

I received this message of the article in the JSSUS Newsletter. Hi Brian and Steve

let me add something about sword and steel.

The Japanese sword is made from (I mean its outer skin and edge) form

relatively high carbon content ( About 0.7% for the edge)

Is it possible to know this without destroying the sword? The answer is

Yes if the sword was quenched.( By this I mean that it was heated to about

800C ( but not more) when covered partially in clay ) and plunged in

water.

When this happens Grains of martensite appears on the surface and almost

everywhere in the edge of the sword. These "activities" appear as nie,

nioi, sunagashi , kinsugi...etc)

If the sword was made from western steel with low carbon content these

activities are absent or appear vey sporadically here and there in the

surface of the sword.

High carbon content pieces of steel can be distinguished from low content

carbon steel pieces before they are forged by breaking them. The high

carbon content breaks very easily!! The mystery on how to make a sword

with very high carbon content that does not break have been discussed in

many articles of the JSS-US . It is a feat of technology.

His name is Francisco Couthino. He has written several good articles on comparing Japanese steel to Wootz and this recent article on Hizen steel.

If you are not a member of the JSSUS you are missing some very good things.

[Jean]

I received the first 3 issues of JSSUS 2009 newsletter yesterday and the last issue a week ago, in this last one you will find a very in depth article of NMB member Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini

 

These 2009 newsletters are very interesting and very homogeneous, fantastic articles and especially the one on Hizen swords with this article which starts from a comment of Tsuruta san about Bungo swords trying to copy Hizen ones but never reaching their goals and particulary in the hada ..

 

This is a hidden (and free) advertisement to subscribe to JSSUS newsletters (usual disclaimer ..) :D