Dave0258 Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Hi. I posted on this site a few months ago, but had trouble getting the pictures posted. Having now re-read the instructions and downloaded the recommended software, I have the pictures ready to go. I have a friend whose husband just passed away and in cleaning out the closet found a Japanese sword. She said that her husband bought it in Japan right after the war (he was on board a naval vessel in Tokyo harbor for the surrender). Based on my research, it looks to be a kyu gunto, company grade officer's sword (brown tassel). I suspect it is hand-forged, as it has a wooden mekugi pin, and genuine ray-skin handle in pretty good condition. I can see some of the temper line (hamon?). I say some of it, because the blade has extensive rust. The edge is still incredibly sharp, although the point is damaged slightly. The scabbard is the traditional chrome plated with some corrosion. I have not tried to removed the handle to inspect the tang for markings as it is not my sword. The locking latch still works although the button to depress it is missing. Apparently he put it in the closet after he returned and it sat there for the next 60+ years. Two Arisaka rifle bayonets are with it. I am confident of the provenance of the sword. The widow wants to know if the sword has any value, and I have told her that an expert would have to tell her that, although my guess was only a few hundred dollars. My question is whether the blade is worth restoration? I am guessing that the restoration process would cost more than the sword is worth? Where can you send these swords for restoration if you decide to do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcfarrar Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 The widow wants to know if the sword has any value, and I have told her that an expert would have to tell her that, although my guess was only a few hundred dollars. Looks like an interesting blade, worth a lot lot more than a few hundred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remzy Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Hello Dave, you would need to show us pictures of the nakago in order to get a better idea as to if it is worth restoring or not, right now my feeling is that this is a handmade sword but this does not rule out the showato possibility (showato are non-traditionnaly made swords) i wouldnt send a showato to a togishi for restoration. My gut feelings tell me this is a true nihonto. The mount is not worth a thing unless you are into old WWII stuff, so I would ditch it or sell it on eBay. Someone is bound to buy it if only for the tassel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave0258 Posted August 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 I'm obviously not qualified to make any solid recommendation to her on the value, which is why I'm on this site. I have not made any offer to her, and if it came to that point, I would make sure that she sees the comments here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcfarrar Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 The mount is not worth a thing unless you are into old WWII stuff, so I would ditch it or sell it on eBay. Someone is bound to buy it if only for the tassel. Anyone who would take an old Shinto blade in Kyu gunto mounts and part them by selling the koshirae on eBay shouldn't be collecting Japanese swords. Shows a terrible lack of respect for the sword and its history. The sword is most certainly old and I strongly suspect shinto, the Kyu gunto mounts make it very desirable to gunto collectors. People will pay $1000 for the sword in that state without even seeing the nakago... I would. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loiner1965 Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 The mount is not worth a thing unless you are into old WWII stuff, so I would ditch it or sell it on eBay. Someone is bound to buy it if only for the tassel. Anyone who would take an old Shinto blade in Kyu gunto mounts and part them by selling the koshirae on eBay shouldn't be collecting Japanese swords. Shows a terrible lack of respect for the sword and its history. The sword is most certainly old and I strongly suspect shinto, the Kyu gunto mounts make it very desirable to gunto collectors. People will pay $1000 for the sword in that state without even seeing the nakago... I would. totally agree pete....the sword should stay as it is as thats its history Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 First off it needs to be oiled now, does look to be a older sword and as stated value can only be guessed at out of hand but the nakgao must be seen to get it into a fare value ballpark for the lady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weidas Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 truly pity to read that someone don't care about kyu-gunto koshirae and sees only the blade. My opinion is that this koshirae is part of sword history and must be kept together... speaking about koshirae, pictures don't show clearly but tassel and some shadow on the end of the handle, which looks like police sign allows expect that this is police gunto. In that case the sword would be worth more than army T19. Dave, could you do more pics of handle also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Dear all I am slightly confused or missing something. Everyone seems convinced that this is an old (shinto) blade. based on what you can see how can you possibly tell? I am not saying you are wrong, I just don't understand how you reach that conclusion without seeing the nakago and are unable to see much detail on the blade. Having said that I agree totally with Peter that it would be wrong and makes no sense to separate the koshirae and blade regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave0258 Posted August 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Here are two more photos of the handle. Unfortunately I do not have a clear picture of the backstrap and I have already returned the blade to the owner. I may try to contact her this weekend to explain some of the comments that this community has kindly provided and to see if I can take a look at the nakago. Regards, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave0258 Posted August 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Stephen C - I don't have access to choji oil. (unless someone knows of a supplier in the Cleveland area). Can you recommend a substitute? Also, I am concerned about continuing to store the blade in the koshirae, as I am certain it just reintroduces additional rust and subsequent abrasion every time the blade is taken out and replaced. Is there another storage method someone could recommend? Please excuse the beginner level questions. I know from reading this site that I have a LOT of studying to do to really appreciate these blades. In the meantime, if there is a possibility to salvage a genuine nihonto, I want to try to do so and quickly. I appreciate your patience. (and the next time I am privileged to spend 3 months in Japan I will try to choose a less time consuming passion, even if it is also less rewarding and pleasureable.) Thank you for all of your advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loiner1965 Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Stephen C - I don't have access to choji oil. (unless someone knows of a supplier in the Cleveland area). Can you recommend a substitute? Also, I am concerned about continuing to store the blade in the koshirae, as I am certain it just reintroduces additional rust and subsequent abrasion every time the blade is taken out and replaced. Is there another storage method someone could recommend? Please excuse the beginner level questions. I know from reading this site that I have a LOT of studying to do to really appreciate these blades. In the meantime, if there is a possibility to salvage a genuine nihonto, I want to try to do so and quickly. I appreciate your patience. (and the next time I am privileged to spend 3 months in Japan I will try to choose a less time consuming passion, even if it is also less rewarding and pleasureable.) Thank you for all of your advice. use light sewing machine oil as it will do the job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Doffin Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 And continue to store the blade in its koshirae. Even in less than ideal condition, the koshirae provide the best protection. Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nickn Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 the colour of the steel the hamon and even the spider rust points to this being a shinto blade i guess the nakago will have been altered to fit the tsuka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 I think I am at risk of playing devils advocate here. Nick et al may all be absolutely right and this may well be a shinto blade. However I am concerned at how that conclusion is reached. At the various Shinsa I attended in the UK one thing that became very clear is that even with blades in an excellent state of polish it is extremely difficult to make judgement calls such as this. Many proud owners of what they believed to be old blades were disappointed. In this case there just doesn't appear to enough visible to judge. taking Nicks points: 1. Colour of steel -The colour we are seeing in these images has as much or more to do with the lighting and background as it does the object. without something to compare it with how can we judge the colour of the steel? I know that even after 20+ years of study I still find defining colour differences with swords in hand incredibly difficult. from a photograph it is impossible. 2. Shape of hamon, you cant see structure or activity. I agree that it doesn't look etched or the uniform pattern one sees on gunto with a false hamon, but it could equally be Gendai or shin-shinto or pretty much anything else. 3. Spider rust- sorry I don't follow that one at all. I have seen spider rust on every form of Japanese blade so don't understand why it should be indicative of shinto As pointed out above I am not trying to be difficult or argumentative. However I am concerned that we appear to be expressing opinions as if they are statements of fact without backing that up, and for someone new to the subject or just seeking help on a one off case this can be extremely misleading. Everyone's opinion is valid but it is useful if that is supported by reasoning. I still maintain that comments such as "Its definitely old" can be inadvertently misleading. Regards paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 I agree at 100% with Paul, it may perfectly be shinto but for none of the reasons given by Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nickn Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 paul i dont know how many swords you own or handle on a regular basis but i assure you this is not a gendiato and is most probably a shinto blade its like looking at a 66 mini and one from the 90`s same car but nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nickn Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 jean what reasons would you give for this being a shinto blade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 whats the hurry, cant we wait until we see the nakago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nickn Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 stephen do you need to see the nakago to know this is not a gendiato but most probably a shinto blade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Nick, I have spent a large part of my life studying handling and collecting Japanese swords. I have had the great privilege of seeing and handling many many swords over a 25 year period and learning with collectors of greater experience than mine. The number I own is not relevant nor is it a measure of my knowledge or lack thereof. Its interesting that the more I learn the fewer swords I need to collect, they are just better. Its true that over the years I have collected I have made very many mistakes but one I try very hard not to make is to say things like "assure you its not a Gendaito" especially when that view is based on a few photographs. However I am sure I still have a great deal to learn and hope I will continue to do so. BTW I have also spent the majority of my working life selling spectrophotometers for measuring colour and educating people about colour assessment so I do feel reasonably confident when stating that making colour assessment from photographs displayed on uncalibrated monitors and without a reference is extremely inaccurate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Yea what Paul said ...lol...rolled the dice both ways before and the pix really dont tell...so ill wait, not in a rush and dont care about being right or wrong to which era it came from. What i do pray is it gets some TLC soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remzy Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 The mount is not worth a thing unless you are into old WWII stuff, so I would ditch it or sell it on eBay. Someone is bound to buy it if only for the tassel. Anyone who would take an old Shinto blade in Kyu gunto mounts and part them by selling the koshirae on eBay shouldn't be collecting Japanese swords. Shows a terrible lack of respect for the sword and its history. The sword is most certainly old and I strongly suspect shinto, the Kyu gunto mounts make it very desirable to gunto collectors. People will pay $1000 for the sword in that state without even seeing the nakago... I would. That is your opinion ,but i am not a gunto collector and once this blade is polished out, it would not be a good idea at all to put it into that mount and it is by no mean traditional. To me That would be a lack of respect for the sword, to me ww2 mounts are untraditional, ugly and modern, but to each their own. That is my opinion, opinions are fine but passing judgment about individuals is not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Tenold Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 I think everyone needs to step back and take a deep cleansing breath on this thread. *MOD Lever Engaged* Dave is new to this and came here with the intention of finding out what he could about this sword on behalf of someone else. Let's not go spouting off all kinds fluff, no matter how confidently you might feel about your opinion, about what we *THINK* the sword might be. This is how misinformation starts and disappointments begin. I certainly don't want NMB to be the origins of that. Even a modest assessment of the blade requires the whole form and the nakago to be seen, and the measurements need to be taken. More importantly it should be examined in hand by a knowledgeable person. A show would be the best place to get some varied qualitative feedback. It doesn't make a darned bit of difference if it's Shinto, Gunto, or Heian. Good work needs to be preserved and good work was made in all periods. Let's try to provide this individual with some information of value and tell him what he needs to do instead of clog his cogs with all kinds of terms he may not be famliar with and just confound him more. Let's resume with productive info and shelf the speculation. Use the pm function for wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nickn Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 i am with remzy polish and shira saya sell the military mounts mass produced and on the most part ugly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remzy Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 As per my first post here, I am still waiting for pictures of both side of the nakago before speculating farther than `this look like a handmade sword`. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 Remy, you are wrong. Plain and simple. Usually I am more diplomatic, or open minded. But in this case, just wrong. No matter what you feel about military mounts, they are part of the blade's history and belong with it. Shirasaya by all means....but koshirae and tsunagi too. How the heck can you say they aren't traditional? Swords were taken to war because they were traditional. The style of the fittings was done in a traditional way. I think they are extremely traditional. And in 200 years, those mounts will be antiques and very much part of Japanese tradition. I don't care if ppl want to part-off fittings, or "think they are ugly"..I don't want that encouraged here. Some very fine swords are found in Shin-Gunto mounts, and are still preserved that way today. That is how it is here, I am leaving this topic locked as I am not interested in counter points or arguments. No new topics to continue this either please. As for you Nick...very brave of you to state so confidently something that even advanced collectors here would hesitate to say. You should really research the ppl you are trying to insinuate have little experience. I wouldn't be so confident if I were you. Frankly, whether Shinto or Showato, no-one here should be telling newcomers what they have for certain without much proof. You have argued with others here, and have still not provided a shred of proof to back up those assumptions. Sorry, but combined with the last few incidents, and the fact that I really don't want my experienced members to be challenged at every opportunity, or ridiculed or mocked....I think it is time for you to graze in greener pastures. Probably best for all of us. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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