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Inscription on Tang?


rainey

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Hi ! I'm new to your site, but have really enjoyed learning from all the wonderful information. I have a question about a World War II Japanese Sword that has been in my family as long as I can remember. My uncle brought it back from Japan after WWII and gave it to my Dad. It looks identical to the one at the top of the page listed as "Japanese Military Swords I". I have removed the handle looking for markings on the tang, and found none. My question is - Is there always a mark of some sort on the tang to immediately identify the sword as traditionally made and not machine made? Could it be traditionally made and still have no identifying marks? I would appreciate any assistance. Thanks

 

Lori

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Hi ! I'm new to your site, but have really enjoyed learning from all the wonderful information. I have a question about a World War II Japanese Sword that has been in my family as long as I can remember. My uncle brought it back from Japan after WWII and gave it to my Dad. It looks identical to the one at the top of the page listed as "Japanese Military Swords I". I have removed the handle looking for markings on the tang, and found none. My question is - Is there always a mark of some sort on the tang to immediately identify the sword as traditionally made and not machine made? Could it be traditionally made and still have no identifying marks? I would appreciate any assistance. Thanks

 

Lori

 

Hi Lori,

 

Welcome to the site. 8) Quick answer is... it's anyone's guess until we see it, but it could be traditionally made and have no markings, yes.

 

Slow answer is, take some pics overall and some close-ups of the Nakago (tang) and post them here for opinions. Read the site for hints on what kind of photographs to take.

 

Also, general word of warning. I am sure you are aware that you should not try to clean either the blade or the tang in any way... :shock: (The blade maybe once you have learned how...)

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Piers, thank you for your welcome and response to my question. I will try to attach photos.

 

Thanks again.

 

Lori

 

Hi Lori,

 

Just had a quick look at your photos. Thanks for the quick response. If you can separate the blade/tang away from the Koshirae (sword furnishings, eg scabbard, hilt, etc. which are guaranteed to be 'young') and focus solely on getting good, clear close-up shots of the naked Nakago/Tang and naked blade, all over, that would be good. For example, both sides of the complete Tang, including the crossover area with the blade. Some overall shots of the blade, and then some detailed sections. Never touch the blade, and control the whole process by holding the Nakago. Use a soft towel if necessary.

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Hello Piers

 

Thank you for your helpful suggestions. I have tried to take some close ups of the parts of the blade you suggested. Hopefully, they will come out okay. I did find some numbers on the handle parts. They all have what looks like the number 156, but I can not find a number on the blade. Could it be on the tang under all the rust? Also there are some markings on the top of the handle where it meets the handle or guard with all the washers. I have tried to include photos of those too, but my camera just isn't powerful enough to get that close and be clear. Again, thank you for your help.

 

Lori

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The gold colored/coloured sleeve on the blade is called a Habaki. It is part of the furnishings and blocks our view of the crossover area between the Nakago and the blade. This also slides off.

 

Everything apart from the single flat blade-&-tang can be considered irrelevant to the discussion of your original question. If anything is old and possibly valuable, it will be the core of the beast.

 

Unfortunately the photo quality doesn't quite cut the mustard. Do you have a friend with a digital camera who could co-operate with you?

 

Here's hoping that someone else will step in and help out. I am sure that many people are waiting in the wings! 8)

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Thank you Piers and Stephen for your ideas and opinions. I have only started to research this sword within the last few days. It has been hanging on my Dad's wall since his brother returned from Tokyo after WWII. We know absolutely nothing about it! I have tried to remove the Habaki with no success, but I will try again. I'm a little afraid of damaging the sword or myself!! I will also try to get better pictures.

 

Thank you again for your help, and I'll let you know the outcome.

 

Sincerely,

 

Lori

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Oh, and the Habaki should pull backwards off the rusty Nakago. In the ideal state it should fit fairly tightly in place, and release with a little pressure. I wouldn't use too much force, but after the oil treatment, light tapping with a wooden block and rubber hammer might encourage it to make that vital first movement. Be careful, though, as copper can scratch easily, and some habaki are not as hard as they might look.

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Is there a certain type of oil made specifically for this or can I use olive oil or cooking oil? I hope my questions aren't silly, but I really don't have a clue what I'm doing, and I really don't want to mess up my Dad's sword :-)

 

Thank you again for your help and patience with me.

 

Lori

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Is there a certain type of oil made specifically for this or can I use olive oil or cooking oil? I hope my questions aren't silly, but I really don't have a clue what I'm doing, and I really don't want to mess up my Dad's sword :-)

 

Thank you again for your help and patience with me.

 

Lori

just use light machine oil like 3 in 1

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I tried the machine oil and the habaki still won't come off. I'm not sure what to try next. I'm going to concentrate on getting clearer pictures posted within the next day or so. Thank you for all of your help.

 

Sincerely,

 

Lori

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Guest nickn

try a hair dryer to heat up and expand the habaki or ,and this will get some comments, a butane lighter then tap with a piece of soft wood .i have used both methods and caused no damage to the habaki or blade

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Excuse me but this is getting nuts! We're supposed to be about preserving Japanese swords and we have this person with zero experience tapping on blocks of wood with rubber headed mallets and heating the habaki with a butane lighter? And towards what end? To get the habaki loose? And what good will that do anyone?

Enough already! Leave the poor sword alone. All that is necessary to determine what Lori has is a good, in focus photo of the nakago.

Grey

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Grey is right. Let's not get Lori in too deep here. If the habaki will not come loose then leave it.

 

I do not encourage any tapping or impact on the habaki. This can lead to a broken hamachi on the blade if the impact is done in the wrong direction, as well as damage to the habaki. Heat is also a very touchy subject and can lead to a number of other unfixable problems.

 

Lori, the best way for us to help you further is to try to get some clearer images. However even they may be of limited value, because the condition of the blade's finish is not sufficient to show details of the work that are vital to determining it's quality and/or origins. Only an in hand evaluation by a knowledgable person can do this. The images are mearly a good first step in determining if it needs to advance to that step, or find it is an arsenal made blade that would not warrant further steps in appraisal or restoration procedures.

 

Let's omit any tools from the process from here on out............well, except a camera. :)

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May I respectfully suggest a kind of "Easit" oil,well beloved by engineers of yesteryear to soak bolts and studs which age had stuck fast to each other. I regret I cannot remember the propriety name but you can describe it to your factor as a black liquid with the viscosity almost of water. Usually dispensed in a small tin with a spout you would soak the offending parts, applying it at the junction of the two pieces you were trying to seperate part for up to several days,returning at intervals to try and move the offending pieces apart.Suddenly you would feel slight movement and after further perseverance the two pieces would seperate and you clean every trace off. You could then clean it off and find you had seperation without damage.

 

Henry

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Thank you all for all of your suggestions and offers of help. I'm going to try again to post pictures; hopefully they will be easier to view. I can't find any visable signature on the tang or blade, but have attached a drawing of what I see in the file marks. I really appreciate all of your assistance.

 

Thank you

 

Lori

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Hi Stephen - Thanks for your reply. I really wasn't looking for an appraisal. I guess my last post was a little snippy.

 

I'm just trying to learn all I can about my sword and swords in general and have found this site and the message board members to be very knowledgable. I guess I was concerned that everyone was frustrated with me and was through responding.

 

I too was concentrating on the area I thought was a signature, but have also realized what I'm looking at is just deep file marks. I'm going to try to do oshigata, but the rust has made some interesting patterns and don't know if it will come out or not.

 

Again, thanks for your helpfulness.

 

Lori

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Lori,

I think the lack of answers is mainly due to the fact that without any distinguishing marks on the tang, there is very little that can be guessed from the nakago pics.

The only feeling I get is that those filemarks seem quite well done, and there sems to have been some care put into them, so maybe it is a Gendaito on the off chance. Can't be sure it is handmade or mass produced, and I would urge you to get it to a sword show or group that can look at it in hand and tell you more.

The fact that it is unsigned makes it harder. A LOT of Showato are signed, and I have seen quite a few Gendaito or semi forged blades without a mei.

I think the era is WW2 or just before though, from the pics presented. Anything else is a guess at this point.

 

Brian

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Brian

 

Thank you for your response. I have a couple of questions about the file marks if you don't mind. First, are the fancy file marks more difficult and time consuming to do? I've been told that sometimes they were done and no signature added due to modesty. Is this correct? Also are fancy file marks normally found on a machine made sword?

 

I appreciate your interest.

 

Lori

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Lori,

Like anything, well done filemarks do take more time, effort and skill. I would say that all Nihonto (and most wartime mass produced swords) have filemarks, and some are better done than others. You can't say for sure that the quality of the marks indicates much about the blade though, although it can be assumed that a good smith would take more time doing them. However there are always exceptions, and no doubt members will have examples of plain mass produced blades with well cut yasurime.

Some swords are known to have had well cut yasurime such as Koa Isshin Mantetsu blades and others. Some smiths just took more pride in their work.

The modesty angle is one of the many reasons some smiths didn't sign. However that one occurs mainly in early blades. After 1900, it is anyone's guess why they weren't signed.

So to sum up, afraid I couldn't say for sure anything about the blade based on the filemarks, but they seem neat enough to definitely explore the blade closer.

 

Brian

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