Tantou / Navy dirk/

[Weidas]

Dear All,

 

i have found this dirk and decided to obtain it relaying on description and my immature knowledge of nihonto. As i already've sent payment to the Seller, i would like to ask your opinion - was i stupid or is it relatively good purchase, considering price and quality. Am i right to understand that this item is registered in Japan, thus confirmed as traditionally made tantou? Can anybody translate the copy of document? I considered the price as relatively normal ~$1300, considering that regular Navy dagger type 1883 costs $450-650 i thought price of ~$600-700 for tanto in such a condition is normal, especially the one, put in registry of, as the Seller presents, Agency for Cultural Affairs.

 

i'll appreciate any comment - even the worst thank you in advance

 

the link: http://www.samuraishokai.jp/sword/08615.html

[Grey Doffin]

A bit out of my area but I'll take a whack at it. This looks to be partially hand made and partially machined. The hi (grooves) were cut with some sort of grinding wheel and polished smooth above the nakago; true hand made hi would have been cut by hand. The fact that it has the gov't license tells me that it is probably water quenched, not oil. The piece looks like it was made during or shortly before WWII, not earlier.

The license tells us only that it is Nihonto, not anything about who made it or what quality it is. All Japanese swords in Japan need this license; it has one.

As to whether you made a smart purchase, if the goal was to collect militaria you did OK, I guess (but I don't know much about values on this sort of tanto). If the goal was to collect Nihonto, I would have recommended spending your money elsewhere (books and study).

Hope this helps, Grey

[bdgrange]

You did well.

This is a traditionally made blade in navy mounts that are in good condition.

These are rare as most are machine made with acid etched hamon.

Bill de

[nagamaki - Franco]

There is the possibility that the steel here is not hand forged.

[Ted Tenold]

I'm not convinced this is a hand forged blade. It would take more than just these images to define it, but most hand forged blades will have more attentive finishing of the nakago. Smiths are a pretty methodical breed that believe finishing a sword means finishing the nakago as well. Doesn't mean it's not water quenched either hand forged or not though.

 

I'd also say that industrially produced monosteels when highly polished, can exhibit some pretty conspicuous "hada-like" grain in them. It's a product of the rolling and milling process incidentally called "mill grain". It can be quite convincing (or deceiving) too. Alloy banding formations can also look like small kinsugi or chikei like activity too. Mantetsu and Dairen swords often exhibit this hada"esque" feature and look very similar to that on Hizen blades. Some are courser and some very very fine. I had one SMR gunto with long strands of running itame and masame throughout the whole blade. Those swords were not hand forged, but produced by an innovative electrolitic process.

 

Here's two images of a Koaisshin blade.

[Weidas]

thank you very much! As i understood from description it is Showa period blade, so not very old. However, i assumed that machine made Showato is considered illegal in Japan and therefore, if it has registry documents, it has to be at least main part hand made. I also read that some Showato, although were made using machines, looked very much like traditionally made Gendaito. Franc, do you refer to this? Kindly ask you to explain your opinion in more details. Thank you very much, Ted!

 

Grey is right - i need to learn a lot about nihonto, however, learning from books on yourself, especially when you have to find the beginning of study yourself, is not very easy. Unfortunately, i am very limited to practical studies here, in Lithuania, as there is no kind of society of Nihonto here and Japan in general is considered as land of far far away and where most people don't know the difference between samurai and f.e. ninja. Honestly, i still don't understand what dropped on my head, when i first took hold on T32 NCO's sword and decided to stay on Japanese military swords, kyu-gunto in particular. Although, after a year and half from start of this i have some knowledge in kyu-gunto(J.Dawson and R.Fuller with Mr. Gregory are my teachers from their books) i'm still wandering in the dark about nihonto. that is why i'm grateful to NMB for opening this section - i'm focused on Japanese military edged weapons, but with closest possibility to nihonto as it may be possible. total off-standard frankly speaking

 

sorry for off-topic - i could answer to Grey's remark in few words, but couldn't stop it:)

 

thank you very much once again and if anybody could add anything about this tanto - i'd most appreciate it!!

[Weidas]

Question - how come the machine blade could be registered as nihonto in Japan? Overlook of officials?

[nagamaki - Franco]

Franc, do you refer to this?

 

There are a number of factors which raise doubts about this dagger being a hand forged piece as already mentioned, not the least of which is the homogenized look of the steel, and the nakago being very poorly finished, also, there are indications of mass production/assembly. Without evidence to the contrary it is difficult to come to a different conclusion at this point. Water quenched, perhaps, hand forged from tamahagane .

 

Question - how come the machine blade could be registered as nihonto in Japan? Overlook of officials?

 

Suspect that if this dagger were submitted for shinsa in Japan it might very well encounter difficulties, but without a military stamp or other clear indication officials such as police or customs may not necessarily recognize what they're looking at.

[Brian]

Vaidas,

My opinion is that this one is in the middle between fully hand forged and machine made. Probably from modern steel, water quenched. Given the mountings, I think this would have been an expensive option for a military man. Most blades would have been purely machine made, and this one is vastly superior to that.

 

From what I can gather, you are collecting the military swords, but a bonus if you can find one with a blade better than the average machine made one. If so, then I think you did very well on this one. If you have to have an example of this pattern, then having it with this blade that is far superior to most of this type is desirable, and I think the price you paid for it is a very decent price even if you just look at the militaria aspect.

 

So I think you did well, and i wouldn't be surprised at all if this is Nihonto from modern steel. Gotta look at it in the context in which it was purchased (as a high level military blade) and you did fine there.

 

Brian

[Gunome]

Hello,

 

I'd also say that industrially produced monosteels when highly polished, can exhibit some pretty conspicuous "hada-like" grain in them. (...) Mantetsu and Dairen swords often exhibit this hada"esque" feature and look very similar to that on Hizen blades. Some are courser and some very very fine. (...) Those swords were not hand forged, but produced by an innovative electrolitic process.

 

Does these swords had any stamps (showa, seki) ?

 

Thanks

 

Sébastien

[Weidas]

thank you very much, Brian, Franco, everyone! now i'll sit&wait for the item with much more confidence :D

[loiner1965]

if it as the goverment document i cannot see it being machine made even though the tang looks to be poorly finished off which i am most suprised at....could this be shortened down recently from a longer blade as this would fit in to the above statement.

[Ted Tenold]

Does these swords had any stamps (showa, seki) ?

 

No, I have not seen any that have any mark other than what the SMR factory placed on them. There is an assembly number stamped on the nakago mune, the SMR logo with date (on early production) or the standardized "Koaisshin Mantetsu Saku" inscription with date.

[Ted Tenold]

if it as the goverment document i cannot see it being machine made even though the tang looks to be poorly finished off

 

Torokusho is just a licensing process. Those that issue them are not shinsa judges. Arsenal markings would be the first thing they'd look for and a lack of them would leave a pretty subjective judgement. Again though, the sword may look completely different in hand.

 

....could this be shortened down recently from a longer blade as this would fit in to the above statement.

 

Doubtful. It looks original length. Trying to justify anything else becomes wishful thinking at some point. :lol:

[loiner1965]

if it as the goverment document i cannot see it being machine made even though the tang looks to be poorly finished off

 

Torokusho is just a licensing process. Those that issue them are not shinsa judges. Arsenal markings would be the first thing they'd look for and a lack of them would leave a pretty subjective judgement. Again though, the sword may look completely different in hand.

 

....could this be shortened down recently from a longer blade as this would fit in to the above statement.

 

Doubtful. It looks original length. Trying to justify anything else becomes wishful thinking at some point. :lol:

you are ofcourse correct ted but....................

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

could have been cut down to an original length of a naval dirk

[bdgrange]

What you say is correct but for katana length work.

This has what looks to be a hand made blade and the mounts are of the

lesser grade quality.

The naval type dirk or tanto never seem to have a well finished nakago.

Even the koto works so mounted seem to have no finish or yasurime.

No stamps.

Just rust or some faint yasurime present.

Using the nakago as a recognition does not apply to these WW2 mounted dirks.

Not that they do not have some lengthy messages like"made from the steel of

the battleship Mikasa" but most do not. http://www.finesword.co.jp/sale/touken/gunto.htm

This site is a treasure thanks for it.

best

Bill de

[Weidas]

Actually i tried to obtain #492 or #490, but never received the answer... maybe because they already had the buyer..