help would be much appreciated: seal? translation

[jim12345]

Hi There,

 

I have recently bought a beautiful Wakisashi but am unsure as to the translation of the hilt seal/signature. There are no other signatures on the blade or elsewhere.

 

Does antyone on the forum have any idea who made this weapon?

 

Many thanks indeed for your time,

 

Regards,

 

Jim.

[loiner1965]

sorry to be a bearer of bad news but to me it looks like a chinese copy....look at the damascus type hada on the blade..hope i am wrong as the pic isnt too clear

[jim12345]

Dear Steve,

Are you sure? I have attached a picture of the Kissaki... My friend has had his entire collection catalogued by Christies in the past and I would have expected them to spot some bad Chinese steel!

Regards,

Jim.

[Stephen]

more pix are in order, full nakago and sugata of the blade, kissaki looks good.

[Brian]

I don't know on this one. Very odd indeed.

I can see that kind of hada in Nihonto with certain treatments or other steels, but that seal is definitely a new one for me, and especially to see it on the koshirae too. Bone mountings are usually associated with late Meiji touristy pieces, but this one could be anything from modern Chinese to whatever. It certainly does look to have some workmanship in it, although that kissaki has some odd shape right at the tip.

Hope others will give some input. Perhaps some other pics of the whole nakago and overall blade?

 

Brian

[loiner1965]

unlike brian i have never seen hada like this on nihonto blades and it does look alot better than the chinese hada i admit..i think we need more pictures like stephen suggested to be fully certain. i am no way near experienced like brian or stephen but i cannot see a hamon just that unique folding.....i think we need guido on this one

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

 

Fake

[jim12345]

Further images enclosed.

The workmanship on this weapon is outstanding and there is particularly great attention to detail on the saya. Regarding the age: I do not think it is an ancient weapon at all - I was told that it was late 19th Century but that it was indeed Japanese. I had assumed it was a presentation/ceremonial piece but acquired it on the strength of the superb craftsmanship. I am Grateful for your comments.

Kind regards,

Jim.

[loiner1965]

i would agree with jacques on this one ..its a tourist chinese imitation .....

[Grey Doffin]

I'm not sure this is a fake. If it were a fake wouldn't the faker have tried a more standard way of signing the blade? Wouldn't there be a mekugi-ana? This work is done better than I'd expect on a fake. Looks like real worked steel and the polish certainly is well done. I don't know what this is but I see no reason, yet, to say it isn't Nihonto.

Grey

[Stephen]

not fake

[Mark Green]

IMHO

It looks like many swords I have seen made with western steel. It looks folded, and water hardened. I have seen a few made in the west, that look just like this.

The nakago looks very dark, like it may have been patined.

That would be my guess. Not very old.

Can we get a pic or two of the whole works?

What did Christies say it was?

Very nice though. good polish. pretty nie. I'll bet that is some westen swordsmiths mark.

Mark G

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

mmm... not able to see a Yokote and possibly it's tanpanned, but somebody was quiet careful about details on it...

 

 

 

How does the scabbard look like in junctions ?

If sponge-like is bone, if tight fibers might be ivory. To be sure take a very hot pin and place it on some not-visible part.

If the part melts, it's resins, if not is organic.

 

P.S. Sorry, but wouldn't call it "Superb craftmanship", with all respect.

[jim12345]

Hi All,

 

Thank you for your responses.

 

I was hoping that someone might translate translate the seal but this seems to have transformed into a post regarding authenticity. I will make enquiries at the British Museum and hopefully take the piece there to be properly identified, with the seal translated. I shall update this thread when I know more and I thank you all again for your time.

 

JH

[John A Stuart]

Just so you know the seal was not ignored. I tried to find something similar in the seals I have, but, I don't have the expertise. I shall continue. John

 

I went through my limited lesser and greater seal scripts and they do not match close enough for me to be sure of a translation, sorry. John

[hybridfiat]

Ainu perhaps?

[Brian]

Jim,

I think an item like this will naturally drift firstly to its origins before any conclusion can be made as to who made it. This is a highly unusual item to begin with, and of course a seal can't just be "translated" as there are no kanji to translate, just a representation of them that are highly stylized. It has to be matched with other examples of seals used, and I don't know of any smiths that signed with a gold seal like this.

So the idea is to determine what you have first before we can begin to research who made it.

I really don't know how much the British Museum will be able to assist. I would like to think that the collective knowledge here is pretty good, but if you can get hold of Clive Sinclair or someone with great Nihonto knowledge there, then perhaps they will have an idea. They do have a great Nihonto collection, but how much advanced expertise I am not sure of.

There is some good work put into this item, and the lines are good. But also a great number of unusual features too.

The "seal' and the fact that it appears on the koshirae too. Why would someone do this? The maker of the blade has little to do with the koshirae maker. I can't think of a reason to find the signature on both items.

Then there is the koshirae. Looks like bone to me. Not of the same standard as some of the really good carvings you can find. At first glance they look good, but the finer details are lacking. The detail of the "seal" on the "bone" is an example.

Does appear to have a hamon and nice hada though. Hada appears to come from more modern steels and folding techniques.

 

I think we would all be interested in the outcome of this one. I suggest getting hold of the Token Society of Great Britain to see if they can assist. Please do keep us updated.

 

Regards,

Brian

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning all,

 

If you look carefully at the carved seal shape in the second picture, you will see a gap suggesting two stylised characters set "foot to foot" so to speak.

 

In the seal shape on the tang, the gap is not there, and it has the look of an impressed stamp.

 

Also the general look of the tang seal is cleaner, almost graphic, whereas the carved seal is more basic and has an extra half line on the righthand character.

 

Chicken and egg scennario, did the carved material have a life before someone decided to make the blade much later on???

 

It would be helpful to see a picture of the whole item.

 

Just a thought

 

Cheers

 

 

Malcolm

[nagamaki - Franco]

This looks like a very good quality export-souvenir piece. The sword does not appear quenched and the ha machi is finished rather sloppy for an otherwise decently polished sword. In the past I would have suggested contacting Cary Condell for a translation of this stamp which was a part of his expertise, but that unfortunately is not an option. The saya certainly cries out as an export-souvenir piece to boot. Perhaps, some out of work sword smith was trying to hammer out a living and produced this piece during the meiji period. Might possibly be a post war piece, but my bet is on meiji period.

 

P.S. I was just going to add that from memory Mr. Condell talked about these stamps as being Chinese characters, and that Guido might be able to help. Providing he takes better care of the old noggin that is, ouch!

[Guido]

Being cautious is always good, but it seems like we're now seeing a Chinese fake behind every corner ...

 

The blade looks perfectly legit to me - Hadatatsu, yes, but I'm willing to bet some non-vital organs that it was made in Japan.

 

The Koshirae appears to me being carved from stag horn, a hard to work with material favored by a group of Netsuke and Kiseruzutsu carvers in Asakusa, Edo (Tôkyô), in the 19'th century and into the Meiji period. Many signed their pieces "Kokusai" in Tensho (stylized Chinese characters mostly used for seals) in an oval reserve, and I'm pretty sure that's what the seal says. I'm at the office now, so I'm working off of the back of my head, but some research into this direction should be worthwhile.

 

I have no idea why the seal was inlayed into the Nakago as well, especially since there it's done upside-down (although in the same direction as on the Saya). Quite interesting.

 

OTOH I slipped on the icy streets of Beijing today, and hit my head (I'm not making this up! :? ), so I might be totally off.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

The blade looks perfectly legit to me - Hadatatsu, yes, but I'm willing to bet some non-vital organs that it was made in Japan.

 

What I was thinking about.

Possibly the upper part of a broken katana recycled this way.

 

Still the presence of what looks like Yasurime on a nakago with no mekugiana and what is likely supposed to be or resemble the polisher's signature on a shinogizukuri blade with no

Yokote leave me interested in the final outcome on this one...

[Nobody]

I feel something strange about the seal. I think that I can see its orientation from the carving on the koshirae. If my assumption is correct, the seal on the nakago is upside down and that is unusual as a true Nihonto.

[Guido]

If my assumption is correct, the seal on the nakago is upside down and that is unusual as a true Nihonto.

That's my observation, too, as stated in my above post. And looking again at the Koshirae, I'm not sure anymore it's stag horn, might well be bone. Maybe someone was cashing in on the fame of the Kokusai carvers (thus the emphasis on that school, even carried into the Nakago), or the horn was "cleaned" and lost its yellowish patina - hard to tell from the small pics.

 

And my noggin still hurts, I got a cartoon-like bump on the back of my head ...

[John A Stuart]

Could it be, 天日山?, Tenka Shan ? What was it that starts 'Tenka'? It seems familiar. John

[Brian]

Guido,

Gotta watch out for that communist ice. It's out to get you! :lol: :D

Speedy recovery.

I think that most of us in are agreement that this is very late..Meiji period. Just gotta work out by whom and why.

If the makers were predominantly occupied with netsuke etc, then they might have gotten the nakago orientation wrong..or is that too far fetched?

 

Brian

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

The presence of a fairly decent habaki (possibly recycled too) seems another attempt to

make (or make resembling) this piece something a little over the average tourist's bone-souvenir using available

spare parts.

[Guido]

Brian, with all due respect, I think you're being paranoid! Just because I'm feeling the sudden urge to read Mao's "little red book" while singing "the east is red" doesn't mean they're out to get me!

 

Anyhow, after I escaped the attack of the mutant ice patch, being back at the safety of my video-monitored, microphone-peppered apartment, I scanned a few Kokusai (and one rare Kokuzan, since John seems to be on the right track) seals for comparison:

[Stephen]

Jim

 

I and I'm sure others would like to see the complete koshirae, btw some very good photo work is done here, some background shadow on the kissaki that thru us off path a bit but well done in the photo dept. I have a gut felling that it was done my a modern knife maker, don't think its old, one of the more interesting threads of late, hope you keep us updated. I think Brian has you in the right direction.

 

it brings to mind a old Ken Kesey quote.

 

" The answer is never the answer. What's really interesting is the mystery. If you seek the mystery instead of the answer, you'll always be seeking. I've never seen anybody really find the answer -- they think they have, so they stop thinking. But the job is to seek mystery, evoke mystery, plant a garden in which strange plants grow and mysteries bloom. The need for mystery is greater than the need for an answer."

[Guido]

Stephen, you are aware of the fact that Ken Kesey took phsycodelic drugs (especially LSD) and wrote "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"?

[Stephen]

Drugs? what drugs officer?