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As promised I wanted to give some feedback on the Token Society of GB's first virtual meeting. We limited the first meeting to a maximum of 30 people to enable us to find our way round the technology with a workable group. One person acted  as host and was able to mute and unmute participants. Everyone was muted during the main presentation but could signal if they had a question. After the main presentation people were unmuted (is that a word?) as needed. This prevented the image dashing between participants focussing on the last one to make a noise. It seemed to go well and was generally well received. It is something I am sure we will use again and it will prove a great asset especially for those that cannot physically attend meetings. Which at the moment is all of us.

What I was really pleased about was that amongst those taking part were members who had never had the opportunity to join a physical meeting before  and some from different parts of the world. 

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Hi Ken,

Yes we decided to go for the premium version which I think costs about £11 per month. The other version has a 40 minute time limit and I think a participant limit of around 20. This version has no time restriction and unlimited access. I must admit that to be managable I think 30 is pucshing towards the limit but as we become more familliar with it they may become easier. Certainly proved to be useful and I think has great potential for future activity (although not as a replacement for face to face when we can start that again)

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Hi Ken

We didnt really test it to that extent. The main part of the presentation was a PowrPoint with preprepared images. Where anyone did try an show anything I wasnt too impressed but that may have more to do with the built in camera they were using from their device. With good quality images there didn't seem to be any problem.

Rich,

I don't think it is vastly different over here regarding numbers. I think the reason we went for a paid version was the time constraint (I talk too much for a 45 minute limit as on the free version)

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Paul, you didn't talk enough!

 

I have since discovered that although sometimes used interchangeably, Jigane 地金is the large concept encompassing everything in a blade's composition, whereas Jihada 地肌 is strictly the skin/surface patterns formed on the steel.

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Oh thats another revelation and I will have to change my thinking for future discussions. I have been asked to write up the presentation which I will do at some point (currently a little saturated with it and need to focus on something else) When I do I will incorporate some of the very interesting and useful additional information that you and other attendees offered. The real benefit of the meeting for me was that allowed members with knowledge in specific areas of detail to share them. I think it greaty enriched both experience and understanding.

Ian recorded the meeting and it is available to members of the society should they be foolhardy enough to want to see it.

I admit I sit and cringe when I hear myself. This isnt helped by my good lady informing me that I sound like a slightly drunk Chris Packham (UK naturalist, activist  and tv presenter) on our system  :(

Thank you for your input Piers and it was good to have the chance to meet this way.

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In the expression 'kitae-ware', it sort of means a crack/split during the forging/tempering process itself.

 

The Kanji 鍛 has the metal radical 金 on the left, so perhaps the smithing came first, and then the training (hardening) of body and mind followed that concept?

 

Quote: 

 
きたえる【鍛える】
  1. 1〔鍛造する〕forge;〔焼き入れする〕temper
  • 意志[心身]を鍛える
  • train 「the will [the mind and body]
  • 体を鍛える
  • get oneself into shape
  • …の腕を鍛える
  • train oneself in.../improve one's skill in...
  • 我が校では柔道で新入生を鍛える
  • At our school the freshmen are taught discipline through judo.
  1. 2〔訓練する〕train;〔心を鍛える〕discipline;〔繰り返し系統的に訓練する〕drill

https://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/word/en/%E9%8D%9B%E3%81%88%E3%82%8B/

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Am I mistaken in thinking that...

 

Jihada is simply the pattern of the steel, so a blade which has been polished without heat-treat would still show clear jihada.

 

Jigane is mostly concerned with the activity in the steel, as a result of heat-treat. So a traditionally heat treated non-Japanese monosteel shinken would still show Jigane in proper polish.

 

I'm not sure if Jigane would also encapsulate Jihada.

 

Kitae is the forged lamination, the structure, so would be visible if we broke the blade and polished a cross section.

 

Those were the definitions I was working with. I'd appreciate being corrected of I'm mistaken.

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Mark

that was partly my thinking too. Although thanks to Piers' clarification I need to rethink it.

To me Ji-hada or just hada referred to the pattern, i.e. mokume, masame, itame etc.

Jigane I believed referred to the actual material, the skin steel. But based on Piers note above it appears to encapsulate the material in the whole structure.

fascinating langauge which I know I will never master! Sometimes wish I had studied something that describes pieces in  English as a first langauge. But then again maybe not!

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Just need to clarify that you both have much deeper knowledge of Nihonto than I. I am regularly amazed to discover how much I do not know, and how much I need to double-check with the books or ask someone knowledgeable. All this debate is good material for further enquiry, refinement and clarity in my own mind.

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Thank you Paul and Piers. Piers, I can guarantee that you know far more about Nihonto than I do.

 

This is a fascinating detour and I hope you don't mind the tangent Paul.

 

I've been using both terms to express visual surface characteristics, the visible exposed layer and not as describing the metal itself beyond that.

 

I would usually use Jihada to express the pattern we see. Jigane to express the activity we see on the surface, and Hagane/ Kawagane to express the metal itself. So in the sence of, 'the Jigane and Jihada are visible on the polished surface of the Hagane.'

 

Would you consider the Jigane to be the visible surface or the full outer layer of the lamination?

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Jigane comprises the jihada but also the hataraki and colour. Hence, you hear of darker jigane...

Kitae is indeed the forging output of lamination but I also thought of tempering, as forging is not only laminating but also the heat treatment. 

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