Article claims shinto swords are better than koto?

[piryohae3]

I read an article in the articles section called The Forging of a Japanese Katana by Michael Morimoto. 

 http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/articles/The_forging_of_a_Japanese_katana.pdf

 

On page 5 and 6 it says "As a result, shinto or "new swords" first emerged between 1568 and 1603...but the quality of these weapons far surpassed that of any previously made." 

 

I'm confused. I thought Kamakura swords are regarded as the best ever made and that nobody since has been able to make a sword of equal quality? When people talk about how great Kamakura swords are, are they strictly referring to aesthetic qualities only?

[PNSSHOGUN]

Perhaps referring to the years of mass produced swords during the Muromachi period. The article is broad and generalized, giving a newcomer an outline of the Japanese sword. Masterpieces were made during all ages but far and away the majority of high quality swords sit firmly in the early to mid Koto era.

[piryohae3]

The statement "than of any previously made" seems to include the beginning of time including koto.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Everyone has their own opinion, of course, even if stupidly wrong. And remember  that this is a college student, whose professor may have said there's nothing better than Shinshinto blades.

 

Do check out some more-professional sources.

[paulb]

While I think John is correct and master works were made in all periods of sword making history I am not aware of any other source claiming shinto blades were better than koto. the vast majority of important works and recognised great masters of the art came from the koto period. 

[Brian]

Nicky has a comment she sometimes makes when in a heated debate with someone.
"Have you ever considered the possibility that you may be stupid and wrong?"

:rotfl:

Yeah, everyone has an opinion. The fact that he published that one is a bit nuts. But as broad as it was stated, we can broadly deny it.

[16k]

I’m with John here, I think he compares it to the mass production swords of the Muromachi period.

 

That said, and I say this knowing many will disagree and are probably right because of their longer, better knowledge and experience, but I will always believe the weight of tradition and inertia of the Japanese culture is biased towards Koto blades. Just read how John Yumoto rated blades in his book. Even the great Shinto masters had difficulties getting high rated numbers. And I repeat it, if swords’ shapes evolved, there must be a reason, not only based on the fashion of the time. Efficiency was a factor and combat tactics too. So perhaps, and I say perhaps, Kamakura and Nambokucho blades were the pinnacle of the artistic blades, but every blade change was an adaptation to its production time. A Nambokucho ubu blade would have probably felt awkward and inefficient in a kanbun period duel.

[paulb]

You make a valid point JP blades changed shape to accomodate different fighting techniques. Therefore by definition in terms of fitness for purpose they were better for that application. However when one defines "the best" sword making period I think you need to look beyond the utilitarian aspect and dare I say it, at the art aspect. The quality of steel and the way it was worked is in my opinon far better in Kamakura blades than later work. This is very subjective in terms of material but not so in the way it was worked. The quality of forging activity within the jigane and hardenning created much greater variation than seen in later periods. I think this is due in part to some of the local variations in raw material. I am not weighed down by tradition and I think my opinion is based on what I have seen rather than what I have read. But as said before when discussing better and best in any area you rapidly get in to subjectivity.

[Rivkin]

I don't think this particular claimant means that, but there have been studies which demonstrate much tighter material property distributions and much smaller grain size for shinto.

Shinto is not as good looking, but good looks in nihonto do stem from inability to transport heat fast, so that extremely non-uniform formation of martensite can happen.

 

Kirill R.

[raynor]

I often wonder if the sole criteria for sword quality was its functionality in battle, not aestethics or skill working with what materials were available how the sword ranking landscape would look.

[Ray Singer]

Ken literally took the words out of my mouth. This was the first thing which came to mind when I read the title of this thread.

 

Everyone has their own opinion

[Blazeaglory]

I don't think this particular claimant means that, but there have been studies which demonstrate much tighter material property distributions and much smaller grain size for shinto.

Shinto is not as good looking, but good looks in nihonto do stem from inability to transport heat fast, so that extremely non-uniform formation of martensite can happen.

 

Kirill R.

 

I can see that. With better technologies comes stronger steel. I think allot of definitions and opinions are getting mixed up here possibly and there are multiple answers

 

As far as "great" blades go, not mentioning semi modern techniques and steel quality, my opinion is early Koto blades are supreme in many aspects. Thats why we see all the Shogun and Daimyo passing around Kamakura/Early Koto blades from high end smiths. Not only were they "better" but it was fashionable to have them. Well, I dont know if fashionable is the exact word, maybe "prestige" would be a better word

[Jamie]

Shin Shinto was made because Shinto swords were breaking.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Where is your source for that statement?

[Rivkin]

Suishinshi Masahide I guess... But that's his personal statement. Might be applicable to Sukehiro's style, might be not.

 

Kirill R.

[vajo]

Shin Shinto was made because Shinto swords were breaking.

Ah, oh. And mass produced showa blades did never break so they cut it with a saw into pieces. That must be the best swords ever made in the history of Japan (i heared so). 

[Blazeaglory]

Blades broke all the time. There are stories from witnesses after battles in the 15th/16th century and prior that after the battle, different families would go and look for their loved ones swords and come back with broken pieces to create Osuriage Nihonto.

 

The sword was usually the last weapon to be used during a battle after the pole arms, bow and arrow, spear, etc... Even the best made sword by the best smith could break if hit right and I think the samurai knew that and would save it for the very last stand or when hand to hand combat was happening.

[Ken-Hawaii]

James, the Edo Period, which corresponds to Shinto + Shinshinto, was a time of peace. Instead of Koto weapons being made for constant battle (ignoring kazuuchi-mono)), Shinto blades were mostly for show. In the older blades, hamon grew much wider, so that a blade could either be resharpened, or cut down into a shorter weapon. Shinto blades maintained that, in large part, because hamon could be much flashier. Check out http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/12669-shinto-into-shinshinto-why/ for more in-depth info.

[16k]

And this excerpt from Nihontocraft.com shows that even the great Shinshinto masters' blades were prone to breaking:

 

The following is an actual account of Extreme Aratameshi. This was documented by Takano Kurumanosuke in the mid ninetieth century. 

This testing took place in the home of Kaneko Chubei, a Matsushiro-han retainer of Shinano on March 24th, 1853. Twelve blades were subjected to Aratameshi testing that day. These included 2 katana and 3 Naginata by the famous smith, Taikei Naotane, a shinshinto katana by Tatara Hiroichi , a shinshinto katana by Asahi Kiichi, a koto nagamaki, an Oshu mono koto katana, an Osaka shinto katana, a shinshinto Naonaga katana and finally a katana by Yamaura Masao, the older brother of Kiyomaro. 

The testing commenced with Tsuge Kahee, a naginata teacher, wielding an ara nie deki katana by Taikei Naotane made in 1835. Two bamboo sticks were wrapped together and used as the testing object. The circumference of each bamboo stick was about 15 cm each. When the blade struck the target, it penetrated about 80%. This was not a complete cut. Then, a retainer named Saitomasuki tested this katana on a piece of metal that was 0.24 cm thick and 9.0 cm wide. The blade broke in two at the area close to the hamachi. The broken edges looked similar to that of an icicle, very brittle. This katana had been considered well made. 

The second blade tested was also a katana by Naotane. This blade had a nioi-deki hamon. It should not break as easily as the first one. After several cuts by Tsuge Kahee on straw wrapped bamboo sticks, a ha-giri developed and the blade was bent. Five other people also tested the katana but none of them could make a complete cut on the straw wrapped bamboo targets. Takano Kurumanosuke then took over the testing and used the katana to cut a helmet filled with iron sand. Another bend developed upon the first cut. Two more cuts introduced another ha-giri. Deer antlers were used as the next target and three cuts were performed. A piece of forged iron was also used for two cuts. This cutting of hard objects produced many ha-giri. After that, Kanekochubee cut a kabuto with it and a severe bend was introduced. He then used the blade to hit an anvil on the mune and on the sides several times and the blade broke. 

The 3rd, 4th and 5th blades tested were all nagamaki made by Naotane. They were all bent and ha-giri developed after several cuts. The ha-giri on the 5th nagamaki had a big opening rendering the blade useless. 

The 6th blade tested that day was a katana by Tatara Hiroichi, a contemporary smith. It was used to cut a piece of forged metal and the blade was broken. 

The 7th blade was also a Shinshinto by a smith named Asahi Kiichi. It broke when cutting a kabuto. 

The 8th blade was a koto nagamaki and the 9th one was an Oshu mono koto katana. They were only tested on straw wrapped bamboo and performed well. 

Blade number 10 was an Osaka Shinto katana. It was used to cut a tsuba made of shibuichi. The blade broke in two at the monouchi section upon impact. 

The 11th blade was a katana by Naonaga, a student of Naotane's. A ha-giri developed after three cuts on the body section of a suite of armor. 

A katana by Yamamura Masao was also tested that day. The nagasa was a 65.15 cm. Like the Naotane above, it had ara nie in the hamon. The Masao blade was used to cut wrapped straw eleven times and each cut went about 80 - 90% through the target. Secondly, bamboo staffs were used for six cuts. Each cut penetrated 70 - 80% through the target. Thirdly, an old piece of iron that was 0.303 cm thick and 2.12 cm wide was used as cutting object. The piece of old iron was cut in two pieces upon a single stroke of the sword. However, ha-giri may have developed. In the fourth step, deer antlers were used for six cuts. The fifth test conducted was to cut straw wrapped bamboo twice and the cuts went in about 60%. Then 2 cuts each were executed on a helmet filled of iron sand, iron armor, and a shibuichi tsuba. For the 9th and 10th test, a piece of forged iron and a kabuto were cut once each. Following that, an iron bar was used to hit the mune seven times and a mune-giri developed. In the 12th and final test, the same iron bar was used to strike each side six times and the mune was used to hit an anvil thirteen times. The ha-giri became bigger upon the last test. The side of the blade was then used to hit the anvil three times and the blade finally broke in two. 

This demonstration showed how well Yamaura Masao's blade withstood the harsh tests, or should we say abuse, of Extreme Aratameshi performed on that spring day of 1853. 

[Blazeaglory]

And this excerpt from Nihontocraft.com shows that even the great Shinshinto masters' blades were prone to breaking:

 

The following is an actual account of Extreme Aratameshi. This was documented by Takano Kurumanosuke in the mid ninetieth century.

This testing took place in the home of Kaneko Chubei, a Matsushiro-han retainer of Shinano on March 24th, 1853. Twelve blades were subjected to Aratameshi testing that day. These included 2 katana and 3 Naginata by the famous smith, Taikei Naotane, a shinshinto katana by Tatara Hiroichi , a shinshinto katana by Asahi Kiichi, a koto nagamaki, an Oshu mono koto katana, an Osaka shinto katana, a shinshinto Naonaga katana and finally a katana by Yamaura Masao, the older brother of Kiyomaro.

 

The testing commenced with Tsuge Kahee, a naginata teacher, wielding an ara nie deki katana by Taikei Naotane made in 1835. Two bamboo sticks were wrapped together and used as the testing object. The circumference of each bamboo stick was about 15 cm each. When the blade struck the target, it penetrated about 80%. This was not a complete cut. Then, a retainer named Saitomasuki tested this katana on a piece of metal that was 0.24 cm thick and 9.0 cm wide. The blade broke in two at the area close to the hamachi. The broken edges looked similar to that of an icicle, very brittle. This katana had been considered well made.

 

The second blade tested was also a katana by Naotane. This blade had a nioi-deki hamon. It should not break as easily as the first one. After several cuts by Tsuge Kahee on straw wrapped bamboo sticks, a ha-giri developed and the blade was bent. Five other people also tested the katana but none of them could make a complete cut on the straw wrapped bamboo targets. Takano Kurumanosuke then took over the testing and used the katana to cut a helmet filled with iron sand. Another bend developed upon the first cut. Two more cuts introduced another ha-giri. Deer antlers were used as the next target and three cuts were performed. A piece of forged iron was also used for two cuts. This cutting of hard objects produced many ha-giri. After that, Kanekochubee cut a kabuto with it and a severe bend was introduced. He then used the blade to hit an anvil on the mune and on the sides several times and the blade broke.

 

The 3rd, 4th and 5th blades tested were all nagamaki made by Naotane. They were all bent and ha-giri developed after several cuts. The ha-giri on the 5th nagamaki had a big opening rendering the blade useless.

 

The 6th blade tested that day was a katana by Tatara Hiroichi, a contemporary smith. It was used to cut a piece of forged metal and the blade was broken.

 

The 7th blade was also a Shinshinto by a smith named Asahi Kiichi. It broke when cutting a kabuto.

 

The 8th blade was a koto nagamaki and the 9th one was an Oshu mono koto katana. They were only tested on straw wrapped bamboo and performed well.

 

Blade number 10 was an Osaka Shinto katana. It was used to cut a tsuba made of shibuichi. The blade broke in two at the monouchi section upon impact.

 

The 11th blade was a katana by Naonaga, a student of Naotane's. A ha-giri developed after three cuts on the body section of a suite of armor.

 

A katana by Yamamura Masao was also tested that day. The nagasa was a 65.15 cm. Like the Naotane above, it had ara nie in the hamon. The Masao blade was used to cut wrapped straw eleven times and each cut went about 80 - 90% through the target. Secondly, bamboo staffs were used for six cuts. Each cut penetrated 70 - 80% through the target. Thirdly, an old piece of iron that was 0.303 cm thick and 2.12 cm wide was used as cutting object. The piece of old iron was cut in two pieces upon a single stroke of the sword. However, ha-giri may have developed. In the fourth step, deer antlers were used for six cuts. The fifth test conducted was to cut straw wrapped bamboo twice and the cuts went in about 60%. Then 2 cuts each were executed on a helmet filled of iron sand, iron armor, and a shibuichi tsuba. For the 9th and 10th test, a piece of forged iron and a kabuto were cut once each. Following that, an iron bar was used to hit the mune seven times and a mune-giri developed. In the 12th and final test, the same iron bar was used to strike each side six times and the mune was used to hit an anvil thirteen times. The ha-giri became bigger upon the last test. The side of the blade was then used to hit the anvil three times and the blade finally broke in two.

 

This demonstration showed how well Yamaura Masao's blade withstood the harsh tests, or should we say abuse, of Extreme Aratameshi performed on that spring day of 1853.

Wow. Just reading that made my skin crawl!

[Ken-Hawaii]

So, it took an anvil to finally break a Kiyomaro blade!

[Guest]

Hi Ken, Yamaura Masao (sometimes called Saneo) was the elder brother of Kiyomaro.

 

Yamaura Masao (Saneo) was also the author of Oi no Nezame.

 

[Ken-Hawaii]

You're absolutely right, Malcolm, & I should have known better, as I wrote a long treatise on the brothers. Thanks for the catch. At least good blades ran in the family.