Signed tsuba curious about signature

[waljamada]

Have a signed tsuba from a sword I purchased a while back. I think it's actually pretty well made which made me curious about the signature and if anything's known about the maker.

[Geraint]

Dear Adam,

 

With the greatest respect I do not think you have got your eye in yet as regards tsuba.  Look at the chipped mimi, the surface of the seppa dai, the quality of the carving of the mei and the general  quality of the design.  Look inside the edges for evidence of a casting seam. I do not think it matters what the mei says, it matters what the tsuba says.

 

Keep looking.

 

All the best.

[waljamada]

Yeah, won't argue I don't have a refined tsuba eye. My eye however has always liked folk art more than fine art. To me though, it's actually a pretty creative little design. Fun gaps, the water details look good. The horse is odd, done with more expression than realism. Knew I didnt have any great artwork here but liked the style of the guy. Looked around for a casting seam or a place that shows evidence of a stem from pouring into a mold but didnt see one, but then again not 100% positive if there are variations of what those look like. It came on a sword with a horse menuki, so goes with the theme. I'll do some reading and look through the for sale forum here for tsubas and get some tsuba eye research in and do some reading.

[waljamada]

Also question, is there a standard if the mei should be on the top or bottom of a tsuba? Basically does the signed side face up towards the habaki or does it just depend?

[Peter Bleed]

Yeah, won't argue I don't have a refined tsuba eye. My eye however has always liked folk art more than fine art. To me though, it's actually a pretty creative little design. Fun gaps, the water details look good. The horse is odd, done with more expression than realism. Knew I didnt have any great artwork here but liked the style of the guy. Looked around for a casting seam or a place that shows evidence of a stem from pouring into a mold but didnt see one, but then again not 100% positive if there are variations of what those look like. It came on a sword with a horse menuki, so goes with the theme. I'll do some reading and look through the for sale forum here for tsubas and get some tsuba eye research in and do some reading.

Adam,

Early this week we discussed you - or at least people like you - on this Forum. You asked for help, you got a reaction from a real expert, and then YOU argued with what you were told. I think you should thank Geraint for his response. After that I urge you to google "Tsuba". That will bring you to an array of tsubas and answers to the question you have asked. Look at the crisp edges on good tsuba. Look at how experts present guards. What is "up" and "down"? Check the color of nice old iron - is it grey or black?

[Peter Bleed]

Adam,

I urge you to look at this item I just found.

 

https://nordicknives.com/products/namban-tsuba

 

It is stylistically unlike the piece you asked about, but LOOK at it. Look at the smooth surfaces and edges. I think you will find similarities to you tsuba.

Peter

[waljamada]

Peter,

 

If you read my comment you came out with something that wasn't there. Saying my eye leans towards folk art, that I looked for a seam after he suggested that. No where did I argue or say anything against what the expert shared with me. Then I shared what I liked about it even though it was no great work of art. Quick with the lashes when there was no crime. I do agree however that I should have said thank you and I do appreciate your help Geraint. As I also stated in my response to Geraint I will read into tsuba and study the for sale and posts on the forum about tsubas also like you suggested Peter. Also Peter I appreciate the example you shared. I've learned in this forum I must take scolding on the chin while amongst the top of the field. Makes sense and will continue to learn.

[SteveM]

I think the mei is trying to be 

彦根住 - Hikone-jū

宗典 - Mune nori

[Brian]

Peter, perhaps overly harsh. Adam hasn't argued like many, and I don't think deserved the criticism.
Better to point out the features that point to this begin cast. The average novice won't recognize that soft and uneven looking seppa dai, with striations typical of the cast ones. The lumpiness of the design, without any real definition.
Adam, you'll get there. Nothing wrong with your approach for now, we were all there. Lots of reading and asking questions will speed up the process.

[Guido]

宗典 - Mune nori

 

Or Sōten? 

[SteveM]

bugger, i'm way off nowadays

[Peter Bleed]

Adam,

Please forgive me. I was harsh to you and should have ignored your inquiry. I am really sorry I did not do that.

Please also let me also try to salvage this discussion - and my standing in this community - by discussing the tsuba you asked us about.

Your tsuba is a legitimate, late Edo period (+/- 1800) fitting. At that time, quite a few men in Japan were expected to wear a sword. Even impoverished men could - and may have had to - wear a short sword. In my opinion your tsuba was the sort of fitting that could be available to those men.

As you know, your tsuba is signed with the name SOTEN. It also has clear characteristics of having been cast rather than carved. That is to say, it was something like a mass produced product rather than an individually crafted accessory.  "Soten" describes a group of workshops that made and marketed a distinctive style of tsubas that were popular and appropriate to most situations. They were the tweed sport coat with Dockers of the era.

Soten guards also came in a wide (!) range of qualities At the high end Soten guards are individually created - and worth a lot of money. At the low end, basic Soten forms seem to have been cast of iron. After casting, these guards would have been cleaned up by hand and then moved on.

The cast iron blanks were made with flat facets so that they could be shipped on to Soten workshop for further work. Some "gold" nunome highlights  could be added. But the real hall mark of the Soten guards were soft metal highlights - faces and figured - applied over the iron. These highlights could be knocked out by apprentices and then soldered on to the iron blanks. Look at your tsuba. See those two flat areas right in front of your thumb in the middle picture? I think that is were figures could have been added - but weren't.

Please compare your guard to this one for example.

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/en-gb/item/76217151_18c-Japanese-sword-tsuba-sages-in-pine-grove-by-soten

There are also many discussions of Soten fittings elsewhere on NMB.

Again, I am sorry that I responded to you as I did. I hope you will forgive me

Peter

[waljamada]

Peter,

 

Water under the bridge, as a horse and some clouds go by on a cast soten tsuba. I understood the intent behind your original message and take no offense. I truly do appreciate the knowledge imparted by the experts here as it is a gift of learning that they do out of a passion. I realize that I did not respond in an educated way but rather a subjective way in my original response which was due to the fact that it takes time to follow up on the learning portions imparted by the experts. For example I went off of Geraints original response and googled all the terms/observations he used then was able to immediately apply them to my own little tsuba. It was in essence a shortened lesson he gave that I was was able to apply once I had a private bit of time to invest in the learning. Your example you shared led me down another little link pathway to explore and read descriptions, styles, variations etc... your latest message actually gave me a glimpse into the culture and climate of those times. Reading can be linear and discussions can be dynamic, but with both in tandom one has a more interesting/fulfilling learning experience. So thank you all. I personally have no one around me in my area who has any interest or knowledge in these things to share with so if you ignored the post I wouldnt have learned from you and therefore I'm grateful you didn't.