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Help with Mumei blade


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Hello everyone,

I came into possession of this blade recently and would greatly appreciate input from more experienced collectors. I’m not sure how feasible it is to do so, but if the sword could be identified to a general time period and region/style of make that would be ideal.

I’m already aware of the bad quality ato-bori and the ware cracks and suspect this is why it was cheap. To my inexperienced eyes, the hamachi seems worn, and the nagkago has heavy patina, which makes me think that it’s fairly old and been polished several times. The Hamon looks like suguha and the Hada seems to have masme and some type of wood (komokume?) characteristics, but as I said I’m inexperienced and could be completely wrong about all of this. Also it might be due to general inexperience but it seems as if the angle and type of incident light affects how prominent the different Hada patterns are.

I had read that Yamato style blades were produced in large numbers as arsenal weapons during the sengoku period and most were unsigned. Is it at all possible that I’m looking at one such example?

 

Thank you again for everyone’s help,

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Your whole sugata picture is so dark it is hard to see the whole shape but I’d think it is more recent than Muromachi, probably Shinto. Better pictures of the sugata would help as well as measurements. You have a blade with extended chu kissaki, Suguha temper line is konie deki . I think your nakago has Kiri yasurime. Hada seems to be itame in so,e parts but very tight in other parts. Can’t say much more and will leave the real experts give their opinion.

 

EDIT: with the new pics posted while I was replying, let me tell you that this horimono is really ugly, probably Dremelled out. Not trying to be rude. I realize my words were strong but I kinda like the overall blade except this part and wonder if it wasn’t made to hide a defect.

 

RE-EDIT: the size and shallow curvature would seem to accredit a Shinto blade.

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Hello Jean,

Unfortunately I’ve only been able to remove the blade from the shirasaya while the weather is extremely moist. The method involving tapping my left hand with the right while holding the bottom of the grip hasn’t worked under drier weather and I’m not confident that I could remove it right now without causing damage to the patina or worse so the only full Suguha photos I have were taken by the vendor.

The carving being horrifically bad seems to be a universal consensus. I suppose that’s what made it cheap. And yes I also was wondering if it could have been added to cover some type of a defect or if someone just recklessly did that (there are people who by mistake polish ancient coins, could be something like that I thought).

Thanks,

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You could try taking a piece of wood, put it on the border of the tsuka near the Habaki and tap gently, alternating sides with a rubber mallet. I have a blade like that and I’ve also used the following method. First, be sure no one is around, then, with the mekugi still in the mekugi ana, swing it forwar several times. If you feel it move inside, remove the mekugi and jerk the blade slightly over a sof t surface (a bed is ideal). It works fine for me.

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If I use force and use it in an unskilled way, will it risk damaging the patina or sword itself? I’m probably projecting from an irrelevant subject but coins that have partly mineralized are very brittle, and I dread breaking an antique (even if it’s one that’s already damaged).

Thanks,

Edit: it isn’t moving, even with moderate force used. So far I’ve only been able to remove it while it’s raining outside. I could still take a full length photo if it would aid with identification but the tang is going to be obstructed.

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I would invest in a Mekugi nuki (small brass hammer made for removing the bamboo peg, etc)

 

Just go slow and follow sword handling protocol and you should be ok. Even tho these Nihonto are old, they are still fairly solid for the most part. Just dont use any abrasive substances on the blade or try to clean it. They are not "brittle" in the manner which you are thinking of. Eventually the blade will come out of the Tsuka

 

Other than the bad carving and a little over polish with some minor blemish, the sword overall isn't too bad for a first sword if the price was good. I would agree that it looks to be a Shinto blade, early to mid Edo possibly? I've seen it before... through Daimyo54 right?

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Thanks, I do have a mekugi nuki, although so far I’ve only used it to remove the pin. Do you know if it’s safe to place the sword near steam or does that risk causing damage? And yes it’s one of Daimyo54‘s, given that I didn’t pay much I’m not that bothered by the flaws.

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I wouldn’t place it near steam, no, the best way is still the first way I gave you. If you’re afraid to hit the blade, put some rags around it. You don’t risk damaging it, these are sturdy.

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If its really stuck on there, you can use a wooden splint that can be made out of most  pieces of wood. There are quite a few "how to's" out there and you can find them pre-made for cheap. Which is basically what 16k was saying above.

 

Stay away from steam as it can cause rust and make the glue holding the tsuka/saya together come apart

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Its hard to judge the blade like this one. The hamon style is Yamato, its no earlier than second part of Muromachi, there is masame in shinogi ji. Can be even Bungo.

My bet though would be probably someone like nth generation of Owari Seki Kanenobu...

 

Kirill R.

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Thank you Grey,

The help would be greatly appreciated. The only concern I have is that Georgia classifies this as a weapon and I never applied for a carry license. If I place it in its packaging box and say it’s there for repairs would it be okay? I haven’t been to shows vending weapons before so I’m unsure about how the logistics of this would work?

I look forward to the help and show.

Thanks again,

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Hi Juan,

No permit needed; you will have no trouble.  Carry permits apply only to firearms, not swords.  Put the sword in its box and come to the show.  You'll have to pay to attend but not much.  There will be a seminar on sword care and handling Saturday morning, free and open to all.  If you'd like to walk around the show to see what's available you're welcome to put your sword under my table so you won't have to carry it.  Hope to meet you.

Cheers,  Grey

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Juan,

 

I don’t have a lot to say other than what’s been said, other than to tell you Grey is very reputable. And attending the show, you’ll get to see many very good swords. If you like these swords take this opportunity to go see some very good ones. I seriously can not stress this enough.

It’s way better yhan the books man.

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  • 3 months later...

Hello again, I suppose I’m due for an update: I brought the aforementioned sword to the Atlanta show and showed it to Mr. Benson; he said the sword dated to the Muromachi period, and that it had Bizen characteristics, like the Nagako, also due to damage from the ato-bori and machi okuri it is not cost-effective to polish(not surprised but that means the hada and other traits won’t get any easier to discern).

 

So with all that said I wonder if it isn’t possible (especially for all the people here that are much more knowledgable than me) to make an educated guess at an attribution.

 

If it helps I’ve gotten a bit better at taking photos, and it turns out the hada on the outward-facing side is pretty intact. I’m still new at this compared to everyone else but it kind of looks like a mix of komokume and maybe Itame (definitely a lot of small whorls close together). The inward-facing side which I had been looking at initially is much more scuffed up by uchiko damage and like Ken said, I mistakenly interpreted the scratches as masame; with good incident light what looks like komokume is visible all over the inward-facing side of the sword as well. Shinogi appears to be komokume as well or itame. Nakago appears to be kuri-jiri with kiri yasurime.

 

Also, I guess the Hamon still counts as suguha but I see a slight notate pattern. Also every so often the Hamon will show activities, either what looks like extra lines ( sunagashi?) or these small dimples going towards the cutting edge (is that yo?).

 

Also, the sword seems to have some taper: the Motohaba is about 2.9cm, sakihaba about 1.8cm, definitely more taper than the Shinto katana I have; I assume this is part of what pushed it towards a Muromachi attribution.

 

The curvature also seems to begin fairly late along the blade, especially when compared to the Edo period sword. The late curvature is all the more notable because the Muromachi sword has a shortened blade(machi okuri), I imagine when it was originally made the curvature started even later along the blade length. Again I’m inexperienced but this seems like a tendency towards saki-sori, at least compared to its edo counterpart and I wonder if this also wasn’t part of what helped push the time period attribution towards Muromachi.

 

So far that’s all I can think of. If more photos would help, I’d be happy to take them. I could also upload higher resolution photos in imgur or another file sharing website.

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Hello Ian,

Yes of course. I never meant to question Mr. Benson’s opinion. I was just wondering if it's at all possible to guess which smith might have made this sword. Of course, I totally understand that might be unrealistic, especially given it's scuffed up state and the bad quality of photos I've uploaded. I suppose such a thing is difficult even with swords in better shape.

Also, I forgot to ask at the time but was this likely to have been made as a katana/uchigatana? I assume a tachi would be substantially more curved than this and a bit larger but I could be wrong. I guess the curiosity you’d get from having a beat-up old sword laying around and wondering what it did and was back in its day is gnawing at me a bit.

Thanks

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