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How do they do it?


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Ed,

I agree very much with your post except the NBTHK is not the only group to have been involved in scandal and fraud. 

 

Also the problem at the NBTHK was a long time ago and involved local offices issuing papers. My understanding is that since that occurred the system has changed to ensure such problems cannot, or at least should not happen again. At some point we have to stop quoting what happened 40 years ago under different people as a "problem" or gauge of an organisations trustworthiness.

Are the judges at the NBTHK, NTHK, NTHK-NPO perfect? Absolutely not

Are they better than me? Absolutely

I agree that most complaint is generated by disappointment. I have yet to hear anyone complain they got a better than expected attribution.

However I have seen some from all three organisations that I do not understand. This can and often does trigger further study in attempting to understand why they have reached the conclusion they have.

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Alex 

you would be surprised at how many examples there are of swords being attributed to shin-shinto by one body and koto by another.

There were a number of shin-shinto smiths who specialised in producing copies, and yes outright fakes too, of much earlier work.

Some of them were very very good.

So I dont think it is a case of being thick just making the wrong call based on the short time they have to make a judgement.

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Hi Paul,

I have heard stories of other scandal, but nothing as extensive or well known as the NBTHK scandal.  Perhaps I should have been more specific by stating the NBTHK was guilty of the largest scandal known regarding corruption and the issuing of counterfeit papers.

 

You are correct that it has been 40 years since that happened and I don't personally hold it against them any longer and have moved on.  Fact is, I have several items there now. Even though it was local branches, it still reflects on the organization as a whole, and  unfortunately(?), society doesn't easily forget when they have been wronged.  Perhaps we should remember or more importantly they should remember that we have not forgotten. That stigma will likely be with them 40 years from now. 

 

I too, have had a number of odd things happen with at least a couple of the organizations. Things, both bad and good that have lead to an attempt to understand their position.  There have been occasions when a bit more research revealed a perfectly plausible answer, and others that left me scratching my head.

 

As I stated previously, the Shinsa teams (all of them) are hands down the most educated and dedicated scholars in the world when it comes to Nihonto!

 

While writing this response, Paul brought up a great point regarding the length of time spent on a sword going through shinsa. I can't say how much time the NBTHK or others spend in Japan, but I have witnessed several US shinsa proceedings.  Due to time constraints there is very little time spent on each individual sword. For mei comparisons, they rely on a couple of books and for mumei pieces they rely on experience. Kantei is done by the members, a short discussion is held and if the majority agree, papers are issued. That is why on NTHK papers where stamps are seen, at time you may see five stamps when all were in agreement.  Other times perhaps three stamps where three out of five agreed.

 

Tom, Actually you can receive different attributions from the same organization.  They rotate shinsa judges, which means the judges that looked at your blade this time, may not be the same judges next time.

 

 

Best,

Straw man  :rofl:

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Alex 

you would be surprised at how many examples there are of swords being attributed to shin-shinto by one body and koto by another.

There were a number of shin-shinto smiths who specialised in producing copies, and yes outright fakes too, of much earlier work.

Some of them were very very good.

So I dont think it is a case of being thick just making the wrong call based on the short time they have to make a judgement.

 

Hi Paul, read about those copies but was referring to Dotanuki, that no one copied (I presume)

 

The others, totally understandable and you can see why

 

Was thinking about how much time NTHK have v NBTHK, when you pay your money, last thing you want is a rushed appraisal.

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I think it can be sometimes really difficult to date the swords ESPECIALLY for us beginner and bit advanced collectors, and even some Japanese experts have voiced that fact. I remember for example Hinohara Dai stating some small differences in NBTHK magazine articles that many beginning and advanced collectors often fail to notice. And it will take very experienced eye and knowledge to immidiately catch them. When working with loads of items and time restrictions you can of course miss some things even if you are an expert.

 

I am not going to debate between organizations, as each of them have shinsa panel with knowledge far exceeding mine. However I must note that the problem I see in overseas shinsa are the circumstances. I must admit I do not know how shinsa panel makes the judgements and calls and what references they use but I would think if they are doing it in their "home base" they have all the possible references they have in use (for example NBTHK has a record of all items passed previously). When you are doing overseas shinsa I do believe they are more limited on resources.

 

As I stated on the previous thread about this sword I have never seen similar mei reference anywhere. NTHK seems to have or they otherwise agree on it as they papered it. Granted I don't focus my interest on swords of this era but I do have quite many reference mei now in general from earlier times. Of course Dōtanuki works are quite rare but some can be found easily online.

 

九州肥後同田貫上野介 is by far the most common signature among this school. Here are some examples

https://www.seiyudo.com/ka-010118.htm

https://iidakoendo.com/2592/

https://tokka.biz/sword/dotanuki.html

http://www.nipponto.co.jp/swords3/KT324342.htm

https://www.touken-matsumoto.jp/eng/product_details_e.php?prod_no=WA-0333

 

Here you can see Munehiro dated 1847 with small write up: https://nihontou.jp/choice03/toukenkobugu/tachi/061/00.html

 

I was surprised to find out there was an article at Ohmuras site about the school: http://ohmura-study.net/040.html

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Certainly the shinsa teams have access to much more reference material in Japan. 

The question is, do they always use it. 

 

I have experienced several instances where this point directly influenced their decisions, both positively and negatively.

 

But those are stories for another day.

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The problem of nihonto is not papers A versus papers B.

The problem of nihonto is that a typical collector with either 0 or 50 years of experience is a proud owner of two blades, complimented by command of some Japanese.

So the "Study" and "Research" we hear so often about means translating a paper and maybe some portion from some book.

Accordingly, any discussion also boils down to what does a paper say, how good is its color, and what some book says about the name in the paper.

 

Kirill R.

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