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Help in identifying Sword


Ru55

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Hello all,

 

I've recently found myself with more time on my hands and thought I'd definitively identify a sword that has been with the family since supposedly the 1940's. 

 

The story as told is that my late grandmother was in the Queen Alexandra Nursing Corps in the far east and upon the Japanese surrender and as the highest ranking officer in her area received the sword. I have no way of verifying this. 

 

I'm looking to confirm whether the sword is authentic and ideally as much about it as possible.

 

Images attached.

 

I appreciate your time and patience in any replies as you must get this alot... 

 

Many thanks

 

Russell 

 

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The mei reads:

 

伊賀守貞次

Iga-no-kami Sadatsugu

 

Student of Inoue Shinkai. If the signature is legitimate it could be an interesting sword several centuries old (the sword, not the fittings). However it looks frightfully rusted. This sword needs attention from a professional polisher. Avoid trying to scrape or sand the rust off by yourself. This is an area for specialists only. 

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The mei reads:

 

伊賀守貞次

Iga-no-kami Sadatsugu

 

Student of Inoue Shinkai. If the signature is legitimate it could be an interesting sword several centuries old (the sword, not the fittings). However it looks frightfully rusted. This sword needs attention from a professional polisher. Avoid trying to scrape or sand the rust off by yourself. This is an area for specialists only. 

 

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

I'm now petrified of touching it ! 

 

I 'washed' the tang to make it eligible and now feeling a complete idiot.

 

Being UK based I wouldn't know where to start in finding a restorer of what I'm legally obliged to declare.....

 

Hope I haven't opened a pandora's box here as it's been sitting in the attic for years and perhaps i should of left it there. 

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Hi Russell,

Welcome to the forum.

First things first and to stop you from worrying. You have inherited a genuine antique Japanese sword which you are legally allowed to own and keep according to UK law so no problem there. Secondly, although washing the tang wasn't a good idea, you haven't done any permanent damage so long as you now oil it as John suggests. It would also be a good idea to oil the blade itself right up to the tip but be careful not to cut yourself. Once that's done, leave it alone and please don't attempt to remove any rust spots or blemishes on the blade. The same goes for the leather cover and the handle and fittings, don't try to clean any of them.

Now sit back, take a deep breath and prepare to be overwhelmed by the information the guys here will supply about your sword.  :laughing:

Just remember one thing, the sword has been in your family since WWII and the blade itself is much much older than that so there is no urgent requirement or rush for you to do anything with it in regards to restoration. You will get good advice should you choose at a later date to have it restored but be warned that the costs can be considerable.

Or you can simply enjoy and appreciate it in it's current condition, there's nothing wrong with that. It's your sword so don't feel pressured into doing anything with it.

Cheers and congratulations, it's a very nice sword and I wish my Nan had left me something like this instead of a crappy Peugeot 205!!  :rotfl:

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Hi, Russell. As noted, no need to panic. Your blade has been around for awhile, & isn't likely to disintegrate for quite awhile longer. You have a wakizashi, probably from the Shinshinto Period, with koshirae (fittings) from a later period.

 

Since you've gotten water on the nakago (handle), I highly recommend totally disassembling it, down to the bare blade - don't worry, they are made to do that. Then, please lightly oil the cutting part of the blade, assuming that you've already lightly oiled the nakago. FYI, the nakago should always be left as-is, with nothing added, as it helps to determine the jidai (age). Once you've oiled everything, then you can put it back together, trying not to disturb the oil, which keeps the metal from further rusting. There's an excellent article on sword care at http://www.nbthk-ab.org/swordcare.pdf

 

As far as what to do with it, after that, you have a couple of choices. First, you can just enjoy the sword as it sits, and that might not be a bad choice. Polishing it can cost up to $100/inch, which would make it look much nicer, but would add very little to the value. Along with the polishing costs, by the way, you will need a new habaki, as well as a new shirasaya, which can add almost as much as the polishing cost. Swords are supposed to be stored, long-term, in either a shirasaya or a katanadansu, rather than in the koshirae your blade is in, right now. Koshirae were originally intended for battle, or for formal events.

 

Okay, we've given you a lot to look up & consider. Welcome to the forum!

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Firstly can I say a big thank you for your warm welcome. Being a member of other forums this board certainly comes across as a friendly and enjoyable place to be. Credit to you all. 

 

The advice is fantastic and very welcome. 

 

Before I continue, rest assured the whole blade - with fittings removed - was lightly oiled with mineral based motor oil ( It's all I had... ).

 

Some of you have been very kind and given me answers to questions I was going to ask in terms of going forward, however I've now become slightly obsessed by all of this and have more questions - sorry ! 

 

1) How accurate can we be in the blades origin ? 

 

2) What is the best way of ensuring authenticity ? 

 

3) Does the blade have any value ?

 

4) Should I / Can I ensure against that value ? 

 

5) Is there a way to reunite the blade with the original owners family perhaps ? It seems the right thing to do and would make a great story / project for me. 

 

6) What would you do if it was yours ?

 

 

Here are some further images of the blade as requested. The blade length with all fittings removed is 25 Inches on the nose ( as in exactly!! ). As with the first set I have adjusted the contrast in order to highlight the details. 

 

I have also added an AA battery for uniform scale comparison.  

 

Thanks again everyone. 

 

 

( PS - I also have a confession to make. As a very small child I used to sneak the sword out of the house and attack trees etc with it. It felt awesome!! ) 

 

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Hi Russell

I will try and give you some quick answers.

1. Depends what you are looking for. Is it Japanese? Yes. Is it by who it says it is? We can get fairly close and confident on a signed blade in good polish. The less you can see the harder it gets. 

2. if you have it polished you could submit it to shinsa at the NBTHK or NTHK (from the Uk you would have to send it to Japan) and they could confirm the authenticity of the signature and issues a certificate confirming it to be worthy of preservation.

3. Everything has value. Ultmately it is worth what someone is will to pay for it. To have it polished papered and put in Shirasaya you could spend several thousand pounds in total and have a blade that is worth little more than the cost of restoration. But it could also be worth more if everything went well or a lot less if the polish uncovered a crack or other fault. As it stands I would suggest it is worth a few hundred pounds to someone wanting a project

4. Only you can decide whether to insure it or not.

5. Blades have been reunited with original families in Japan but generally this is not a good idea. The return of the blade reminds them of a period of history they would prefer to forget and are often embarrassed by a swords return (not always but often)add to that it is a very difficult thing to do.

6. I would show it to several collectors locally and get their opinion as to whether it would polish (As you will appreciate I am a little biased on the last point!!)

 

Not sure where you are in the UK but you would be very welcome to join one of our regular London Meetings or regional events which we hold throughout the year.

Alternatively drop me a pm and I can put you in touch with a member of the Token Society of GB closest to you.

Hope this helps

Paul

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Sound advice from Paul.

 

The blade is in bad shape, but it may be worth saving. The swordsmith is a good one (again, if the signature is legitimate). There is a fingerprint on the blade that you should try to wipe off with a soft cloth. See the red circle in the picture below.

 

 

I wouldn't spend much more time photographing the scabbard and the fittings. The sword most likely predates WW2 by over two centuries. The fittings don't tell us anything about the authenticity of this particular blade. They are part of the provenance, so they aren't worthless, but if the blade is authentic and is salvageable, you will probably want to have a new shirasaya and habaki made after getting the blade polished. Don't worry about all of this yet. First step is to get someone who knows something about swords to take a close look, and I think you have several options available to you for this. 

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Thanks guys. 

 

Paul I've DM'd you as requested. 

 

The fingerprint was removed during the light oiling so no issues there now. Thanks for the heads up Steve.

 

My question about value was to determine the potential value of the blade if it is as thought and in good condition. I completely understand the subjectiveness to any answer, but  felt a ballpark figure would guide any decisions I make going forward. Apologies if asking for a valuation of sorts is the wrong thing to do. 

 

I've already had DM's asking if I want to sell it so wanted to have a better understanding of my position. 

 

Although it must be said selling it is not what I have in mind at this point. 

 

It's presence within my family household is one of a decreasing set of constants as life goes on and as such sentimentality far outweighs everything else right now.  

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Paul I've DM'd you as requested. 

 

 light oiling-

 

I completely understand the subjectiveness to any answer, but  felt a ballpark figure would guide any decisions I make going forward. Apologies if asking for a valuation of sorts is the wrong thing to do. 

 

It's presence within my family household is one of a decreasing set of constants as life goes on and as such sentimentality far outweighs everything else right now.  

 

Stay the course.

-light oiling- is good. Newbies to the field tend to overdo it.

 

You are in the UK and already contacted Paul. Perfect start point and beginning.

 

Valuation: I've worked in the financial markets for decades now. It is easier to price a financial derivative than it is a sword out of the woodwork in its current condition. There are a lot of very binary IF... THEN risks with a sword.  Things like length of the blade lead to some surprising value shifts.  As a very general rule of thumb, katana length = 100% of value  vs  wakizashi length = 30% of value.  Why?  Best answer is a Japanese cultural bias wanting things to certain standards.

 

It can be mind numbing confusing to newbies.

      -Please-  don't think on it that much at this point. It has been in your family for a long time and has been around much longer. My first blade over 20 years ago was a wakizashi needing restoration. When sold, the End value = starting value + restoration costs + papering costs. Financially it wasn't worth the time. Intellectually or educationally, it was worth a lot more than that.

 

Yours is signed by a significantly better maker than mine, though with better names goes higher risk of false signature.

Just take it slow. You are in a good place with many good people relatively nearby.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Dear All.

 

As a follow up to this thread Russell did get in contact with Paul who arranged for a meet up between Russell and I to look at the sword in hand.  At Russell’s suggestion here is an update for those of you who are interested.  The sword is in civil koshirae with a fairly basic set of mounts, gunto menuki and a tachi form tsuba and o seppa of fairly low quality.  The koiguchi has gone astray but a kodzuka slot which has been filled can be seen.  The combat cover is stitched tight over the civil saya with the horn kurikata still in place.

 

The good news is that the blade is in fairly good shape in spite of some adventures.  What I feared might be rust pitting in the kisssaki and monouchi from Russell’s very good images turned out to be impacted muck, most of which was easily removed leaving some superficial damage.  Quite a bit of the original polish remains though with some staining and as far as can be seen it is still in a very healthy state with no evident flaws.  The blade is quite substantial, has shallow sori and tapering to a chu kissaki, the hamon has yakidashi and becomes a billowing gunome midare with lots of nie to be seen, the boshi is healthy and intact, the nakago is in generally good condition.

 

I only have one shoshin mei example but comparison between the mei on the sword and this example reveals some significant differences and so at this stage we are assuming that it is gimei.  I think we would both welcome any additional shoshin mei if you have them to support or even better contradict what we have so far.  Something of a disappointment but none the less it is a very nice sword.  We discussed restoration and I hope that if Russell goes ahead with that he will show us the end result.  I am delighted that it will stay with the family as an important part of their history and be cared for in the future.

 

All the best.

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