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#31 vajo

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 02:27 PM

David your historical description of the wartime is right. But I'm interested in the civil employees army swords. And my timeline gets from 1933 the start of the politics Japanese nationalism to the last acting on different islands at january 1946. Some holdouts fight a long time over this date too.

 

Btw i would like really appriciate pictures of civil employees swords in the IJA.  :thumbsup:

 

Btw a historic note. The Japanese war against the allies ended official on the 28 of April 1952. 


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#32 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 04:54 PM

Chris,

You won't find and "civil employees swords in the IJA". Gunzuko were authorized by reg to carry Type 98 gunto commensurate with their rank. The only way to know it was carried by Gunzuko is if it had the all brown tassel. Nick Komiya found the uniform reg change that designated the all brown tassel for the Gunzuko.

So civil swords, refitted in varying degrees, were carried by all services and all ranks.

Found here: http://www.warrelics...-swords-701783/
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#33 vajo

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 08:18 PM

Bruce that is not correct what kojima said.

There where a lot of ranks outside the military in use. They where civillian officers. 

 

(Udaiben / Sadaiben) daiben (大弁, „Oberstaatsverwaltungsdirektor“),
chūben (中弁, „Mittlerer Staatsverwaltungsdirektor“),
shōben (少弁, „Unterstaatsverwaltungsdirektor“) und
shōnagon (少納言, „Unterkabinettsrat“).
 
従一位 dajō daijin (Großkanzler)
正二位 sadaijin (Kanzler zur Linken), udaijin (Kanzler zur Rechten)
従二位
正三位 dainagon (Großer Kanzleramtsrat)
従三位   dazai no sotsu (Generalgouverneur von Tsukushi)
正四位上 nakatsukasa-kyō (Minister des Hofministeriums)
正四位下 Minister der anderen Ministerien des Daijō-kan
従四位上  konoe no chūjō (Vizekommandant der Leibgarde)
 
正五位下 sa-u-shōben, Vizeminister der anderen Ministerien des Daijō-kan
従五位上 taikoku no kami (Gouverneur einer Großprovinz)
従五位下 jōkoku no kami (Gouverneur einer Oberprovinz), jingi no taifu (Vizepräsident des Götteramtes), Kammerherrn, shōnagon, Amtsl
 
Emura the director of the Okoyama prison was not a military officer and carries a sword.


#34 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 09:41 PM

Chris, you must have misunderstood me. What I was saying is that there was no “civilian sword” designated for the gunzoku. They wore Officer Type 98s and, before the uniform reg change, rank tassels commensurate with their equivalent rank.

#35 vajo

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 09:45 PM

Ah sorry. Thats the problem with my bad english. I hope you will forgive me.

 

So now there are swords which was worn by civilian employees that work in the IJA. Is this correct?

 

And these swords has a "uniformed" look. Such these Bamboo gras fittings or the cherry blossom fittings.



#36 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 11:01 PM

They litterally had the same choices as regular IJA officers.
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#37 IJASWORDS

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 11:13 PM

Here is an enlarged photo of what I believe is a civil employee and his sword. The indication that he is a civil employee is the small insignia above his right pocket. The service that he works for is (I believe) denoted by the color of the insignia. This one I was told is a veterinarian. Students of WW2 Japanese insignia may jump in and confirm this.

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Neil

#38 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 12:10 AM

The rare cream and brown tassel as well. Now these irregular colour tassels are mentioned in reference books and other collector's legends and tales but I would like to see extant pictures or examples of each of them one day. Same goes for the Naval tassel with zigzag stitching.

Edited by PNSSHOGUN, 21 November 2019 - 01:12 AM.

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John


#39 IJASWORDS

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 12:36 AM

Well spotted on the tassel John. I have never heard of the cream/blue variety. Any information you find would be appreciated. 


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#40 IJASWORDS

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 12:44 AM

John, another potentially cream tassel , that looks like it is on a standard gunto. 

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#41 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 01:15 AM

I made a mistake, cream & BROWN is the correct one. There was an example posted here not long ago on a fine early Shin Gunto. So far this is the only variant of the "irregular" colour tassels I have seen true examples of, there is another on Ohmuras site on a SMR koshirae sword.
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John


#42 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 04:51 AM

You can see some here: http://www.militaria...sel#entry301647

And several here: http://www.warrelics...-police-743884/
They were for rail employees.
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#43 Austus

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 04:59 AM

Hey, Neil, I recognize that badge over his pocket; because it got me in trouble a while back, mixing it up with the infamous "W"stamp.   On page 152 in Jim Dawson's book , it is said to be either an artillery officer (yellow badge) or a judge advocate (white badge). Your photo's badge looks pretty dark, though. 


Austus M.


#44 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 05:32 AM

Cream tassel post-4002-0-24672000-1567692339.jpg

Patches. SmartSelect_20190930-005619_Chrome (1).jpg
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#45 IJASWORDS

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 05:54 AM

Interesting Bruce, thanks. The right side 5 down that is dark, and says veterinary service , could be the one in my black and white photo. As I said , I was told it was a veterinary officer/employee. Always willing to learn if I am misguided. 

Austus, I read that, but my photo is definitely not white or yellow.  Bruce's photo shows a range of darker colours . 


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#46 IJASWORDS

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 09:28 AM

This is a mix of old blade, tsuba, and old wood saya, with Gunto tsuka, sarute and tassel in a leather combat cover . Blade is an Echizen Seiki 1684 (papered). 

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#47 vajo

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 11:17 AM

Interesting Ashi on a regular saya. Saya is black Neil?



#48 IJASWORDS

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 11:31 AM

Chris, this is a photo of the same type of ashi . It slips over the black saya. 

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Neil

#49 vajo

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 11:58 AM

Cool Neil. I will look for such a type of ashi for my koshirae restauration.



#50 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 03:40 PM

Superior private with civil sword.

481BBCA6-8A90-4FAE-B97A-6D909501EA5B.jpeg
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