What can you tell me about this sword?

[Misterbovigoren]

I will take any new pics I can to help, I was given this sword to try and restore it to its original beauty. The owner got it from his father, who unfortunately spray painted the straw(?) wrapped saya, and tsuka gold. I just wish to learn anything I can about the sword to inform my friend about it and any tips on getting rid of the spray paint and small rust spots on the blade would be most appreciated. Here is the link for pictures I already have

Gunto Katana https://imgur.com/gallery/8OH7NHk. Thank you for your time.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Please sign with your real first name so we can address you. First of all, don't try to restore it yourself beyond wiping down the blade with a light oil. Any particular value or originality will be quickly destroyed by amateur "restoration". Here is a similar example of your sword, they are rare and unusual: http://yakiba.com/Kat_Katsumasa.htm

[Misterbovigoren]

Forgive me, my name is Bo Vigoren. Feel free to address me however is convenient. Thank you very much for your advice! So removing the gold aftermarket spray paint is out of the question?

[PNSSHOGUN]

Not out of the question Bo, just not sure how it could be done without potentially destroying the Rattan saya. There are a few members here with experience in these matters, hopefully they can offer some advice. There aren't many of these in the wild so it would be a shame to ruin one completely. When I say "rare" they are rare in a military sword collecting sense, the value is not astronomical by any means. It's more valuable as an original example beyond the sum of its parts, so perhaps the damage has already been done for most collectors.

 

It's quite interesting that two examples of this rare mounting both have blades by the same smith.

[IJASWORDS]

This is appropriate to put in the military sword section. Yours is a RARE original WW2 Japanese sword. Don't restore it! I have many varieties of these, all with Katsumasa blades. The handle tape is painted, and usually yellow , orange ito (binding). 

[Misterbovigoren]

Thank you so much for the info! I really appreciate the time you have both taken to help me

[Misterbovigoren]

The only reason I entertain the notion of restoring it is because the original owner does not wish to sell the piece but would rather see it looking closer to it's original condition, and that is the whole reason it is in my possession in the first place. I simply wish to be able to honestly say I tried. Thank you all for you time and priceless knowledge!!

[Misterbovigoren]

As far as restoration, I really just want to try and remove the gold spray paint, and then put a new ito on it (should be easy), and possibly repaint or recoat the black metal fittings on the sword and saya. If any of these things are possible, I would love to know what to use and any other things I could do to help return it to it's original beauty. All of the fittings are easily removable on both the sword and saya, so recoating them shpuld be very simple, I just need to know what to use. I work with my hands and carry a careful temperament, and I have dedicated my life to edged weapons and metal tools, and learning how to build and care for them, but I am still early in the Katana chapter of my life. I have a deep respect for Japanese traditions, art, and ideals, and wish to learn as much as I can. Thank you again for all who offer advice or knowledge or wisdom. I found a helpful link on removing paint from rattan wicker furniture, perhaps It could be of use? https://www.hunker.com/12318741/how-to-remove-paint-from-wicker

[IJASWORDS]

Read your article on paint removal. Don't do it that way !!!! Under the rattan is a metal scabbard that will rust. That article says use water, that is a NO NO. If you must use something use a solvent. Like acetone, methyl ethyl ketone, paint thinners, never water !!   

[Misterbovigoren]

Thank you for the feedback, I will most certainly take heed to your caution! Although, the scabbard appears to be made of solid wood under the rattan??

[Misterbovigoren]

Perhaps that explains why it was wrapped in the first place, perhaps the scabbard was lost or damaged and a wood replacement was made then wrapped in rattan?

[IJASWORDS]

To re-wrap handle , contact Fred Lohman or similar . Show him the colour and pattern of wrapping in my photos. It will cost a cost couple of hundred bucks. If done properly and the scabbard cleans up perfectly , the sword will be worth $800 max.  A good investment ??? 

[IJASWORDS]

Your rattan scabbard is to my knowledge original . I have owned and seen too many like it . And for them all to have Katsumasa blades is not a coincidence . I think they were made by an individual or small WW2 business that made these specially and cheaply, and obtained the blades from Katsumasa. 

[Misterbovigoren]

Thank you for the advice! The goal is not however to raise the value, the owner just wants it to look better. He knew how much I care for steel and asked if I'd be willing to give it some work, I agreed to his request just for the chance to get to work with and hold the sword, because I love sharp things and just recently started collecting katanas, the mother of all sharp things ???? I am very honored to be in the presence of this beautiful sword. Thank you again for taking time to answer my questions!!

[Misterbovigoren]

That makes sense. When I removed the bottom fitting on the scabbard all I could see was wood, and on the inside of the scabbard all I can see is wood, is that typical?

[IJASWORDS]

Yes could be wood . But you have come to the wrong place if you want support with your ambition to work on the blade and sharpen it as I think you are going to do . Members here are against back yard work on blades as it could/will destroy a blade , it's historical significance and value to a collector. 

Also remember this blade is not a true Nihonto, it is a machine made knockout for the war. And it may in fact not sharpen well as it is not the Samurai sword you think it is . You will have a wall hanger at best .  

[Bazza]

Hi there Bo and welcome to the Board,

 

WHOAAAA, steady Neddy.  Neil said it best and succinctly.  I’m a “wordy” type and will expand somewhat.  I saw "care of metal" creep into one of your replies:

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Post #8:

... I work with my hands and carry a careful temperament, and I have dedicated my life to edged weapons and metal tools, and learning how to build and care for them, but I am still early in the Katana chapter of my life. ...

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Just in case it passes your mind, the best way you can care for a Japanese blade is do not ever, EVER think you can improve on the polish of a Japanese sword, even a war period mass production piece.  NEVER.  NO EXCUSES.  Always consult here first as there are hundreds of years of collective experience on polish alone, never mind anything else about Nihonto.  Amateur polish of blades is the biggest bugbear of collecting Nihonto and has been discussed at great length on this Board.  Professionals train under a Master in Japan for many years (read up to 10 years).  Look through the articles section and put polish into the search field.

As near as I can see the gold paint on your rattan scabbard has come from a spray can and not a liquid paint brushed on - the latter would “bulk up” in the criss-cross spaces.  My feeling is you would be better served by having a khaki colour made up in a spray can in, say, an auto or specialty paint shop and use that sparingly and judiciously to cover the gold.  VOILA!  Original colour near as restored for appearance and no damage done anywhere else.

CAVEAT: The solvent used in your made-up spray can might start to dissolve the gold paint and seep into your khaki.  To forestall this I would suggest using various of the solvents mentioned above on a rag (glove up!) to see if any one of them would remove the gold paint before spraying.  As I look at your clipped photo below it appears the gold paint may have fallen off in places revealing the colour underneath, or even the original rattan before it was painted in Japan.

 

 

Now as to the colour, I googled <how to make khaki colour> and found lots of information that should suffice to guide you.  I’ve clipped out the two colours given above from Neil and Ed and pasted them in below for comparison.  I note that both Neil and Ed’s photos have some red colour splashed around the fittings -- any clues, anyone??

 

 

A thought about the spray paint.  You might get the colour mixed in a jar or tin and use a small hobbyist spray gun to do the job, the sort of thing a touch-up specialist might use, or even those folk who do painted artwork on cars.

I think it is quite proper to rebind the hilt and a good person for this would be David McDonald at:

http://www.montanairon.com/swords.html

 

See his article on hilt binding:

http://www.montanairon.com/tsukamaki.html

 

See also Dr Thomas buck:

http://www.tsukamaki.net/

 

I’m sure Neil or John above could guide you on the correct style of wrap with a photo.

 

Best regards,

BaZZa

aka Barry Thomas

Melbourne, Australia.

[IJASWORDS]

Here are two styles of wrap used on this model sword. Menuki fully covered or partially covered . Ensure the khaki base tape is left on..... It is original to the model.. 

[Misterbovigoren]

Thank you both so very much, I will do nothing else to the blade, and i will follow your instructions very carefully. I appreciate all the feedback!!! I am still curious if anyone else has or has seen one with a wood scabbard?

[Stephen]

More may have seen it if posted in the Military forum.

[Misterbovigoren]

Thank you Stephen. Is there a way to move this duscussion there or should I copy and paste?

[Misterbovigoren]

Thank you Stephen, is there a way to move this discussion there or should I copy and paste?

[Stephen]

The Mods should catch it then move. Easy mistake them being beside each other.

[Misterbovigoren]

Thank you again Stephen! And don't worry, I have no intention of trying to sharpen the blade. I would never do such a thing, I dont even try to sharpen my own modern made katanas!!

[Bruce Pennington]

Bo,

 

I have seen many of this style, commonly called Type 3 fittings, with wooden saya (scabbard). They are usually with more expensive, high quality blades. They're not usually covered in ratan, though! They will have other upgraded paint and finish.

 

That's quite a beautiful and rare gunto you've got there. If you have the hobby cash, it would be worth having one of the pros mentioned already to re-wrap the handle. I wouldn't try to improve the blade at all. Lightly oil it for preservation. It looks great as is.

[Misterbovigoren]

Bruce, thank you so much for taking time to give me advice! I will speak to the original owner to see if he wishes to have it professionally wrapped.

[Misterbovigoren]

Perhaps I am doing something wrong, when I search "polish" in the articles section, nothing appears?

[tbonesullivan]

I've worked in Military Antiques for 13 years now, and dealing with primarily edged weapons for years now. Whether it's a 15th century Katana, or a Type 95 NCO sword, best advice is always to "leave it alone".  Second best is "Leave it to a professional."

 

I have seen edged weapons from Japan, Germany, Indonesia, Africa, France, and so forth.  Aside from cleaning and preservation, antiques are best left as is. 

[Misterbovigoren]

Thank you for your advice!!

[Bruce Pennington]

Which brings us to a regular discussion we have often - There are some collectors who really cherish WWII weapons "as is" because it shows the life of the blade. Then there are some who love restoring gunto to as close as their original condition as possible. I was seriously torn when I was considering having my dad's Mantetsu polished. The blade had lots of scratches and marks of use (ok, sure, that could have come from weed-wacking! But he got it from a fellow marine in 1957 and I don't think it saw that kind of treatment). So, do I "lose" all that history?! Or do I polish? I went with the polish, as I have several other gunto in as-is condition, but this one of Dad's will be, probably, my only polish. And man, oh man, did it come out beautiful.

 

But, it boils down to what flavor of collector are you. Figure that out and go for it!