Help Identity Our Mons.

[Guest]

Chigai Taka No Ha (Crossed Hawk Feathers)

 

One of my favourites as well.

[Austus]

 

 

First attempt to share these two mons. One is Takeda(?), the other I can't find.  Weren't sideways when shot.

 

 

Thanks, Y'all

Austus

[Guest]

Hi Austus

 

Not sure about the Takeda attribution, isn't that more Diamond shaped (Hishigata)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeda_clan

 

No 1 Maru Ni Karaigane Bishi (Two geese in a diamond pattern within a circle)

 

No 2 Maru Ni Yotsu Ishi (Four stones within a circle)

[Austus]

Thanks, Malcolm, looks like you're right. Didn't see the difference until you pointed it out.  Gotta get me an Occam's Razor.

 

What are those phrases? I see the English translation. Are they standard patterns or have known names? 

If anybody can use whatever they like, then what's the point? At least they are usually attached to really nice swords.

[Guest]

Hi Austus

 

There are standard patterns and groups for Kamon which are recognisable.

 

This is how the name of your Kamon breaks down:

 

I'll do it in Hiragana because that works on syllables

 

We have Maru Ni Karaigane Bishi

 

まるに Maru Ni  - Within a circle

からいがね  Karaigane - Two geese

びし Bishi - (In a) Diamond shape

 

Yours, however is quite rare, there are quite a lot of Karaigane Bishi, (Two geese in a diamond shape) but very few Maru Ni Karaigane Bishi

 

Also, there is no plural in Japanese, so despite the title of this thread "Mons",  Mon, Kamon, Monsho or Mondokoro (Which are the names for Japanese crests) are both the singular and plural.

 

Following the vast upheavals of the Bakumatsu period (1853 - 1867), the use of Kamon by anyone became a free for all, as it is today.

 

(There are some exceptions e.g. Yakuza Gumi Kamon which are now banned from public display on their offices.)

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's a flatter diamond, found by John on the Pinned Kabutogane thread: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/29629-pinned-kabutogane-on-type-94/

[Guest]

Hi Bruce,

 

Fujiwa Takeda Bishi  (Garland of Wistera leaves with a Takeda Kamon within)

 

 

PS

 

Did you pickup on the 3 different types of Sakura used on the menuki and haikan of Gunto and on the menuki of Kaigunto? 

[Bruce Pennington]

Malcolm,

I'm aware that they differ on gunto, kaigunto, and contingency models, if that's what you mean. Are you saying that there are 3 different styled sakura found on army gunto?

[Guest]

Not quite Bruce,

 

The Army Gunto has Yamato Zakura (Cherry Blossom with stamens) and leaves on the Kabutogane, Fuchi, Kuchigane and Ishizuki.

 

Yamato Zakura (Cherry Blossom with stamens) on the Tsuba.

 

Yae Yamato Zakura  (Cherry Blossom with stamens and petals beneath) on both the menuki and haikan.

 

I'm also curious what the Yae Yamato Zakura is sitting upon on the haikan, is it cherry leaves laying upon a Chrysanthemum?

 

See Ohmura http://ohmura-study.net/906.html

 

The Navy Gunto has Maru Ni Yamato Zakura (Stamen version within a circle). on the menuki. kabutogane and ishizuki

 

I had not appreciated that before.

[Bruce Pennington]

Interesting Malcolm. The base under the Sakura on the Haiikan look like leaves interspersed with FAT stamen. I’d never paid that much attention before!

[PNSSHOGUN]

One of the few Mons I have seen with virtually all the gold leaf intact, for those with remnants of it it would've have looked very splendid.

 

[Guest]

Hi John

 

Maru Ni Mitsu Gashiwa (Three daimyo Oak leaves within a circle)

[IJASWORDS]

This is similar , but not the same as others already posted . 

[Guest]

Hi Neil 

 

Kagewa Ni Sokage Katabami (Linear (Form not filled in) creeping wood sorrel within a circle)

 

See the same Kamon here:

 

 

  http://archive.wul.waseda.ac.jp/kosho/bunko06/bunko06_01736/bunko06_01736_0003/bunko06_01736_0003_p0005.jpg

[PNSSHOGUN]

Still retains the gilding too, I wonder if it was an extra cost or came standard from some sword shops. The swords with evidence of gilding are often nicer quality blades and mounts.

[IJASWORDS]

Hope you can help with this one . 

[uwe]

“Yokogawa” (横川). Not a mon I guess, but might be a family name.

[reeder]

Here’s another I bought to complete out a project.

[uwe]

Probably “Maru Ni Nami”. Waves in a circle?!

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's a mon on a civilian tsuba and saya:

 

[Guest]

Hi Bruce,

 

It's a little blurred but the basic form is Maru Ni Mitsu Aoi  (Three leaves of Aristolochiaceae within a circle).

 

I wouldn't read too much of a Tokugawa family connection into this, as forms similar to this were commonly applied to items for export from the 1870's onwards.

 

I don't think this is a civilian mounted Gunto, but a Tachi aimed at tourists for export.

[hobnails]

Here's one i have which i belive is Shimazu clan

[Guest]

Hi Chris,

 

The Kamon is called Kutsuwa and represents a bit from a Horse's bridle.

[uwe]

Or “Maru Ni Yumonji”. Anyway, both Shimazu!

[Bruce Pennington]

Wow, a mon engraved on the nakago! (for sale by Luis, on the Sale/Trade forum: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/29673-long-strong-aoi-mon-shinto-katana-with-gi-provenance-and-gi-made-koshirae/)

 

[Guest]

Hi Bruce, it is known as Chuukage Maru Ni Mitsu Aoi (Three "empty"  Aristolochiaceae leaves within a circle).

 

Hi Uwe, last year at the Tokyo National Museum, there was an exhibition of "Kakurei Kirishitan" items from the Nagasaki Magistrates Offices, including depictions of The Virgin Mary, depicted as Kwannon, with the "Maru Ni Jumonji" Kamon impressed to the back.

[16k]

What do you make of that one?

[Guest]

Hi JP,

 

That's a difficult one, the Kamon in the center is shown upside down,(mounted Tachi style) but looks like a variant Mitsumorizuta (three Tsuta - Japanese Ivy leaves).

 

 

These are Tsuta leaves, but I think your Kamon has them all pointing in to a central point, not as shown here.

 

Could you turn it upside down again and go closer please?

 

What do you reckon Uwe, Steve M?

[SteveM]

Looks like two sakura flowers flanking a central aoi or tsuta leaf motif. I don't know what to call it, but you often see the three individual flower-in-circle motifs together in a trio like this. There must be some name for it. Usually all three are the same flower, as below

http://www.jp-military.com/teiban/viphtml/70.html

 

My impression is that this is a generic Japanese motif, and not one kamon of a specific family.

[uwe]

Hi Malcom,

 

first glance you are right. I also guess “ Mitsu Tsuta-Shiriawase”!

Pointing towards the “Matsudaira Daimyo” of Obata, in Kodzuke province....?!