New paint on NCO tsuka

[Denis V]

Well, this is it. My very first post on this site. I’ve been reading contents and collecting info for some time now, but this time, I could use some help. Please...

 

I’m already the proud owner of some type 98 shin gunto’s and a couple of kai gunto’s, but never had an NCO sword. So this week I got a nice opportunity to get a rather interesting NCO sword. It’s an alluminium handle Nagoya sword with a leather covered saya ( in rather good condition). Next to this unusual feature, it also came with a war trophy certificate for a British officer and an old picture of the officer ( as I was told).

 

Upon taking a closer look at the tsuka, I have a strong suspission that it has been painted over with a silver colored paint. It looks like it since it seems to cover the initial brown paint and also the thickness of the paint has blurred or covered the smaller details.

 

Basically, my question is if anyone can confirm that it has been re-painted, and more importantly if it should or can be removed without damaging the original paint.

I would like to restore it if possible, but am terrified to damage it permanently.

 

If anyone has any experience with this. Thanks a lot for your help in this.

[Navy]

Yes, it has been repainted (look at the sarute and at the stamps on fuchi). As you noticed, under the silver paint there are traces of the original brown coating, but how much of it is still there is a bet. I would try petrol or acetone in a hidden, small spot just to see if it is an easily removable paint. To me, it seems that is has been already partially cleaned (look at the fuchi again).

[Denis V]

I was afraid of this. Always sad to see these kind of things.

Well, never the less, it can only improve if i can get rid of some of this paint. I will start trying with aceton on a small part like you propose.

Have you already done these kind of procedures with succes?

Anyway, thanks for the great tip.

[16k]

Hey Denis, since you’re from Belgium, I guess you can find the products we have in France. Try to get some Renov’pinceau. It’s very aggressive and will definitely remove the paint. I don’t think that there’s a slight chance you can save the original paint anyway, but at least, it will reveal the underlying details and won’t harm the metal.

 

But to be fair, I have another fear. The lack of details makes me think that indeed it was painted, but also that someone tried to clean it with sand paper, hence erasing the detail. I hope I’m wrong though.

 

EDIT: it’s an old product I had. Looks like environmental laws have sealed its fate as I can’t seem to find someone selling it. As every great product, the government is thinking instead of us and probably decided it was dangerous for us dumb humans. Now it’s probably been replaced by something ineffective, as usual.

[Denis V]

Merci JP

I’ll look for the product or something similar. I understand your fear that the details have been sanded of, but on certain places it looks really thick like on the menuki. So I hope to still be able to recover the details.

In general, does it affect the value of the sword somehow if all the paint is gone?

What would be worse; new, awfull paint or no paint at all?

PS: you’re right about the products. It’s always the best that go first. Try to find a descent weedkiller these days :-)

[Shamsy]

Loss of paint on a 95 does affect value after a certain point. It is one of the quickest ways to confirm authenticity too, so it would be a shame to lose any original paint on the tsuka. Of course saying that, the silver is horrendous and must go. I'm sure there would be a way to carefully work over and remove layers slowly, leaving some of the original tsuka paint.

 

Maybe a very light cleaning agent and a lot of elbow grease. Try Simply Green (US product, but it's in Aus so maybe you can find some too). My feeling is that it would work well on some modern paints, but is less likely to affect older paints.

[zook]

My recommendation -  Everything Steve said...and I would add use a GREEN scotch brite when you scrub it ....  Green scotch brite pad is what several bladesmiths that I know use to remove scratches from blades (and it works for me).  It can be less abrasive then fine steel wool, as you want to take it slow when you remove that new silver stuff.  Best of luck on this!    If the price was right, I certainly would have gone after it! - so it's not necessarily a bad buy in my book!   Dan 

[Navy]

Hi Denis; if it has already been cleaned, as I think looking at the fuchi (silver traces on the edges and inside the stamps), it is possible to do it without harming the finish. Personally I wouldn't use the grit, try as suggested some chemical products, starting with the less aggressive you have at the hands, and then step up. You're right, that paint is very thick, so good chances the details are still there. Do a first, careful attempt on the bolt (brass mekugi), so you can check how strong is that silver with no risk for original finish or details. It is a matter of find the right stuff, adding a lot of patience.

[Denis V]

Thank you for all the info guys. I believe I have a lot of experimenting ahead :-)

Hope it will work out.

Still happy with my sword as it came with some history.

 

Would it also be necessary to remove the handle in order to fix this? I’m not sure I want to risc this as I have no experience with dismanteling NCO swords.

[Shamsy]

Easy to dismantle and it'd aid you in cleaning no end. Only word of caution is that the never seem to fit back together quite as well. Oh, watch for the screw too. Constantly seeing these threaded and/mangled by over excessive force and bad fitting tools. They're only soft metal.

[Denis V]

Thanks. This is one of these things where you whish life was like a videogame where you just can ‘save’ before starting to mess around. Just in case ... :-)

[vajo]

There is a little chance that the paint was done in wartime. On old pictures there a some type 95 with white tsuka.

[Denis V]

Hmmm... this is an interesting point of view, Chris. Why would they have done this? Not for camouflage purposes as i can imagine. Unless they operated in China. But based on the souvenir certificate from the British officer, he got it in Malaya.

 

I tried to scratch very slightly on a small spot, and the paint kind of powdered away. Could be an indication of old paint?!

 

Anyway, if it’s original i’d rather leave it like this, but how to be sure?

 

The paint is really silver color. Then again, if there was still original paint underneath; why paint over it and cover the nice details? That’s just stupid, no?!

[vajo]

If you can remove the silverpaint, try it in very small steps. 

[Denis V]

I will Chris, thanks.

Would you happen to have pics of a wartime white tsuka?

Just to compare?

 

Also it kinda looks like the security spring used to be painted as well...

[IJASWORDS]

Denis

[Denis V]

Hello Neil. So this is what it should look like.

Chris made the comment that he has seen some wartime pictures of tsuka’s painted in white for some reason.

PS: is your pic an original or newly restored one? Looks fancy.

[IJASWORDS]

Hi Denis, mine is 100% original unrestored, and probably the most perfect that you could find. RE white tsuka, others on the forum may have photos of theirs , and it is my belief that they were part of  equipment designed for snow warfare . But the whole sword was white . 

[Denis V]

Nice. Must look great all white.

 

But like I mentioned, mine came with a ‘souvenir certificate’ for a British officer who received his sword in Malaya.

Assuming that this is original, I presume they will have had no need of snow camo over there.

 

So, I need to get rid of this paint and try to restore this sword to it’s former glory.

It will not completely look like yours, that’s for sure :-)

Very nice NCO sword by the way.

[Denis V]

So, i started gently with q tips and nail polish remover (thanks to my wife) and it comes of with a bit of rubbing.

I started on the menuki and the details start popping again. It will be hard to go into the deeper parts of the design but a toothpick might help?

 

I guess I have a little project on my hands for the coming month.

Just to illustrate a pic of the menuki on one side and on the other where i did the test.

[16k]

Wow! There’s a clear difference, and the paint underneath seems to resist. For the deeper parts, you may also try a needle with tissue soaked in solvent.

[Denis V]

That’s a great idea JP. Looks like you’ve done this before

I’ll try it for sure. Merci beaucoup.

[16k]

Pas de quoi!

[Shamsy]

Hi Denis, mine is 100% original unrestored, and probably the most perfect that you could find. RE white tsuka, others on the forum may have photos of theirs , and it is my belief that they were part of  equipment designed for snow warfare . But the whole sword was white .

 

Rotten cream is a good name for it. I've only one photo on hand to show you, which doesn't show much I'm afraid. Not all we're painted on tsuka. Some only saya. A lot of variation.

 

Also, looking good on restoration so far. Old paint is far hardier. That silver if definitely done later and detracts from the sword.

[Denis V]

Lol. ‘Rotten cream’ is the perfect name for this. It has a bleu cheese mould-ish color vibe going on.

Thanks for the pic Steve.

Restoration is rather fun, even if I still don’t understand why somebody would paint over it like that.

I’ll try to post a pic of progress once one side is done.

[Denis V]

Ok, so after a lot of rubbing, i got one side finished and I’m feeling rather happy.

Not sure if it’s the result or the fact that i’ve been sniffing nail polish remover all day... man, that stuff gets in your nose.

So here it is; before and after.

Let me know what you think.

[16k]

I’m impressed! Excellent job Denis! You gave it its glory back!

 

... and yes, that stuff goes up to your head! Try not to commit Seppuku while you’re high! :lol

[vajo]

The Fuchi looks cleaned to or it is from the flashlight?

[Denis V]

Yeah, it’s more the lighting i guess. I went over it briefly, but it was already more or less cleaned.

 

What i noticed however on the fuchi, is that the 3 stamps are not alined, but more in a triangle. The Nagoya stamp seems above the other two. All the other examples i have seen, have the 3 stamp one next to the other. Were they sometimes positioned differently? Does it have a meaning?

 

@JP; don’t worry. And for your info, I also won’t try when I’m not high :- D

[Shamsy]

The stamps are all over the place on loads of example. Sometimes in the wrong order, sometimes missing one or more.

 

Looks so much better after your work. Good job. As to the why it was painted, I've spoken to a lady who's father brought home a 95 and painted it sky blue. Why? Well he must have liked it. I'd considered a documented case of the vet painting a sword a 'part of its history', but when you fins a randomly painted one, cleaning it up is a good thing.