Jump to content

Need Help Identifying for Friend


Stephmic

Recommended Posts

Greetings,

 

I’ve spent quite a bit of time looking over various posts and photos on this forum trying to get more information on a sword. I have learned a lot and find this fascinating! A lot of terms to memorize for sure. Sadly, I’ve just ended up more confused.

 

A fellow fireman at my volunteer fire department gave me this sword to find more information on as he knows I’m interested in WWII history. He claims it was passed down to him by his grandfather who apparently brought it back from Iwo Jima. This I cannot confirm unfortunately. He doesn’t have any other information on it. He also does not intend to sell this as it is a family heirloom, just wants more information.

 

Any insight into what this is and where it was made or by whom would be very appreciated! Although not interested in selling I know he’s curious of its potential value. I looked all over and cannot find any serial numbers or markings. The wooden peg that holds the blade in the handle appears original but broken and rather small. The blade looks in good condition and is still pretty sharp. Thank you all in advance!

 

Michael S.

 

post-5055-0-79602800-1565326818_thumb.jpeg

post-5055-0-10934900-1565326835_thumb.jpeg

post-5055-0-88493200-1565326865_thumb.jpeg

post-5055-0-58349500-1565326895_thumb.jpeg

post-5055-0-77192100-1565326929_thumb.jpeg

post-5055-0-65647800-1565326974_thumb.jpeg

post-5055-0-74673400-1565326994_thumb.jpeg

post-5055-0-45574300-1565327012_thumb.jpeg

post-5055-0-26580800-1565327047_thumb.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Michael, looks like a nice condition Type 98, the blade itself could be Gendaito but we would need better photos of the Hamon to be certain. Keep the blade in a very light coating of light mineral oil and avoid touching it directly. Depending on whether the blade is traditionally made or not the value will rise and fall. I would advise the owner to print out any information (unit, rank, decorations of his grandfather) and keep it with the sword. The broken peg can be replaced with a good quality chopstick cut and filed to size.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the replies. Forgive my lack of understanding but I assume the mekugi ana are the two holes in the handle of the blade where the peg goes? So having two would generally indicate it was repurposed and likely an older traditional blade?

 

I also attached some photos of the hamon which maybe will help identifying the maker?

 

Thanks again! Exciting to learn about this.

 

Michael S.

post-5055-0-36840200-1565357813_thumb.jpeg

post-5055-0-01631700-1565357828_thumb.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can’t help you with so few pics, but seems handmade. Nice activity in the Hamon, too bad you don’t show more of the blade.

 

Yes, two mekugi Ana, drilled, not punched but also a very clean nakago, crisp yasurime, maybe muji Hada (but hard to tell from the pictures). Probably not too old.

 

But, please, bear in mind that I’m no expert! :)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The whole naked blade in one shot plus close ups of the blade itself showing more of the Hamon and the surface texture if any. Look also for an unsharpened edge near the collar (Habaki). It’s often a telltale detail of a more recent blade (Shinshinto to today)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

HI Michael,

 

check for Ubu -Ba just above the cutting edge of the blade ,   just at  the habaki , if it has an unsharpened flat area , more than likely a showa period blade , it is good place to start .

 

I take it, the tang is not signed as you only show one side of the tang .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the replies so far. I spent some time brushing up on the terms to further understand what you're asking about and so I can better understand the katana. I will try to find some mekugi to replace the bad one as mentioned. I'm all ears for suggestions as to where to find one. It really is in bad shape, it's definitely the original from when it was taken overseas.

The nakago has two mekugi-ana. Per the photos I've posted there are pretty clear yasurime on the nakago but absolutely no markings whatsoever, no makers marks or numbers anywhere I can find on the entire katana. As someone suggested this is a pretty clear indicator of a traditional blade repurposed in the Type 98 style? Why is there no makers mark on the blade?

The tip of the blade looks to be that of the shinogi zukuri shape which I understand was very common after a certain time period. I'm not too sure of the hada or hamon but I tried to take better photos earlier to show these and get a better idea of possibly the maker or period of production for the blade, someone suggested Gendaito or Shinshinto? The hamon is very wavy and quite detailed. I also checked for ubu-ba and honestly the blade feels relatively sharp from the tip all the way down to the habaki with no area of dullness. There are also 8 total seppa on each side of the tsuba as spacers.

 

Michael S.

post-5055-0-80464100-1565403375_thumb.jpg

post-5055-0-36752600-1565403501_thumb.jpg

post-5055-0-55608600-1565403308_thumb.jpg

post-5055-0-95505900-1565403404_thumb.jpg

post-5055-0-27943200-1565403339_thumb.jpg

post-5055-0-88732700-1565403470_thumb.jpg

post-5055-0-86076400-1565403362_thumb.jpg

post-5055-0-72115600-1565403422_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having 2 mekugi-ana alone does not guarantee the blade is old nor does it suggest the blade is traditionally made.  The blade appears to have been made in the showa period and looks oil tempered from some of the pictures you have posted.  Regardless, it is a solid example of a WW2 produced Type 98.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I think oil tempered due to the dark spots in the tips of the hamon, but it also looks like there is some other activity, so could be semi traditionally made and oil tempered. Higher grade "showa-to" IMO.

Yes, that was what made me hesitate too. The activities in the Hamon make me think traditional. Yet those spots scream oil tempered. Got to say I’ve never seen an oil tempered blade with that much activity so that leaves me perplexed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 I have a vague memory, (so don't kill me) that if a blade went wrong in some manner, wrong curve, too brittle, whatever, it would be corrected with an oil temper.... This may or may not follow after a traditional water quench.  

 

 I have no references for this, just a memory of something popping up on a thread on one of the four different sword sites I follow.

 

There is also the possibility of a hand forged blade going to oil tempering because the smith was not confident of his skill, or of the metal of the blade. Water quenching is very harsh, and had/has a high failure rate. Oil tempering might not be art, but it was practical and delivered a good using sword.

 

 If it is a Showato, then it is on it's second set of mounts, and I would guess it was one of those Showa era blades in Buke Zukuri that were popular before the war, and then put into Shin Gunto koshirea. There were some funny variations on blade making in the early Showa.

post-2218-0-17865700-1565437572_thumb.jpg

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 A better bet is a piece of bamboo kitchen ware (spatula or spoon), or even better a bamboo knitting needle, either of which uses better grade material than a chopstick. I shape and finish them by putting the bamboo into a drill chuck and using a file as it rotates.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello,

Nice shin-gunto with a better than average blade in nice fittings with those larger seppa’s and silvered Habaki...but not an old blade..No patina ( I know lot’s of people hate that label ) to the nakago and that sheen to the steel cry out nicely made 1930’s non- traditional blade...Don’t be put off by two holes in the nakago just means the blade may have been destined for a different mounting....Only my opinion it have owned similar over the years..

Regards,

Paul..

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you all for the input. For a semi-traditional oil quenched Shin-Gunto such as this what would an estimate of worth be? I’d think likely less than $800 since it’s not significantly aged? Like I mentioned he doesn’t plan to sell as it’s a family heirloom but out of curiosity. I need to stress to him to take VERY good care of this because it’s been sitting for many years and likely the blade handled without gloves, etc. I will stress to lightly oil the blade and replace the mekugi.

 

Regards,

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I see that people still can’t get a definite opinion. Some say Showato, others Gendaito, I myself leans towards Gendaito with reserves. Shows how difficult it is to get clear cut opinions on swords sometimes. Imagine ourselves as a Shinsa team! In the end I guess the final verdict would be the one with most opinions but deep down, there would still be a doubt.

 

Whatever, that’s a good sword, congrats to you Michael!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not having a date or a signature is a bummer, but if it is traditionally made, that would definitely make it worth more. It also depends a lot on the marketplace it is sold in: the Japanese Sword marketplace, or the Military Collectibles marketplace. 

 

I can speak more to the latter: If it's an identified USGI bring back that majorly adds to the value of the sword, regardless of whether it's a Showato or a Gendaito. If there are "bring back" papers, that helps even more. The type 98 mountings look to be in very good shape. I would look at the seppa and the Tsubba, Tsuka, Fuchi, etc to see if they have any numbers on them in Western Arabic or Japanese. Sometimes the numbers will be both, but if they all match that would indicate it hasn't been "messed with".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It doesn’t sound like there’s any bring back papers sadly. When I spoke to my friend the other day to fill him in on some of the findings I asked for more details about how he got it. He said his grandfather gave it to his father and it passed on to him when his father unfortunately passed away in an accident. He’s had it in his basement for years just sitting. I asked about any information on his grandfather so I could try to find records - name, DOB, unit he was in, etc. Waiting so see what he comes up with. It doesn’t sound like he speaks to that part of the family anymore and I told him it’s worth getting the information, especially if it can prove this was brought back from Iwo Jima as he was told by his father.

 

On another note, I was fortunate to get a Type 99 Arisaka rifle and bayonet with scabbard my grandfather brought back when he went ashore on Okinawa. He was a helmsman aboard the USS Pensacola. After the battle of Okinawa was over his shipmates and him were allowed ashore and he walked past massive piles of weapons and equipment and snatched the rifle and bayonet and shipped it home to my grandmother. An incredible piece! The only downside is the chrysanthemum stamp was already scratched off.

 

Looking at the past posts and other examples I see where the oil quenching shows in the hamon, there definitely is a lot of unique activity there. Very interesting thus far!

 

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...