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Help narrow down what shinto era for katana?


cju777

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Hello NMB,

 

As noted in the introduction thread, I have a signed Noshu Ju Ujinobu katana that recently passed the December shinsa for Hozon as shinto era. Tsuruta-san at AOI estimated Muromachi period around Eiroku era (1558-1570), but the December NBTHK shinsa put it at shinto, as also did Ken on the intro thread as well based off the sughata--so think that is probably a good bet.

 

I'm trying to narrow down when might be a better era estimate now and I've tried to walk through my own kantei based off Markus Sesko's series... but I think a lack of experience and lack of hands on other examples is not making it click for me. I also have not been able to find any good comparison mei for Ujninobu that are close to mine. Any thoughts on when in shinto, within probably Edo it might be from? Or thoughts on how to narrow down the generation. Or even ideas where I might be able to find some comparison mei, although I assume its not one likely to make any major books.

 

Some of the measurements I took-let me know if you think I am off anywhere:

Tsukurikomi: shinogi-zukuri

Nagasa: 70.3 cm, but about 1cm machiokuri and a few cm suriage

Kasane : 0.67 cm

Sori: 1.5 cm, toriizori (I think)

Kissaki: chû-kissaki

 

Thanks for any help and appreciate anyone who takes a look at the thread. My photo skills leave much to be desired but can try specific shots if that helps.(It's the lower of the two on the stand in the photo)

 

Cheers,

Chris

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Chris, without much pretense of expertise or looking into Ujinobu's dates: if it does not have fumbari, its not straitish, the curvature is sort of uniform its typically the early-earliest shinto or maybe something from the 18th century, but the latter are very uncommon. And this one does look like late Momoyama sugata.

 

Kirill R.

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look at the mei JP does that look pre-shinto to you?

I would go with early shinto i.e. 1600-1650 rather than later. The problem is we tend to fall in to the trap of creating clearly defined borders between periods and there weren't any.

what we are discussing is a possible 50 year window in a 300 year timeframe.

I think your best bet in finding the period is by studying the smith (smiths) and seeing if you can tie down the mei to a particular generation.

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Very true, Paul, I was basing my opinion on shape alone. It’s understandable from a non expert like me, but I find it strange that someone as experienced as Tsuruta San would do the same.

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in  Tsuruta san's   opinion , the sword dated from 1558-1570 , If I remember rightly the  koto period finishes approximately about 1590 !    so if  he is only 20/30 yrs out ,   I wish I could be that accurate when dating a blade.

 

the  sword for me , even with pictures supplied looks like an  early Shinto period  sword  ! and  I agree with Paul as to the possible  date,  I would also  guess around the  circa -1600-1650 , but what do I know .

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in  Tsuruta san's   opinion , the sword dated from 1558-1570 , If I remember rightly the  koto period finishes approximately about 1590 !    so if  he is only 20/30 yrs out ,   I wish I could be that accurate when dating a blade.

 

 

 

:rotfl: good that

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I thought that shinto began as way of life rather than a date. Those in the market who had "tight itame, say goodbuy to ware" were considered shinto, while their neighbors who had "bright mokume o-hada with nagare and everything included" were still koto.

 

Kirill R.

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Hey all,

 

Appreciate all the discussion! Especially as a beginner its easy to get focused on a specific "era" and forget that in reality things shifted over the time period and it isn't always so black and white. I wasn't intending to imply anyone was wrong or misleading, so hope that I didn't come across that way --  just my own curiosity to get a better sense of how to go through a self-kantei, and mainly help me narrow down on where to look for info on the generation of Ujinobu that I have. Especially since shinto and Edo cover a wide range of time. I enjoy the history aspect that comes along with owning a specific nihonto. Really helpful comments and thanks for your time to chime in!

 

Tom D. - I did get it from AOI, but sent it to shinsa after purchase. He couldn't guarantee the mei, but it all looked pretty legit from what I saw in the pictures and not someone I'd suspect is a gimei target so gave it a shot. I am enjoying it so far, was just curious how folks are able to narrow things down and focus my own further study.

 

Cheers,

Chris

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