Jump to content

Supposed Aoe Yoshitsugu


Death-Ace

Recommended Posts

Hey guys!

 

I'll be using the auction pictures for now, but here's a supposed Yoshitusgu I won awhile back. Once I get home from deployment, I'll take some better pictures of the hada, jigane, and the works.

 

It was a bringback, but the seller did not know if he brought it back from service in the CBI theatre or the post-war occupation.

 

I can't really find many examples of Yoshitsugu's work or signature references, but what I see of the Aoe school, it appears the strokes and size of the mei may not be concurrent. So maybe gimei but still signed katama mei as a lot of Aoe works were? I do like the sori and what can be seen of the blade. It looks to have been slightly suriage in the distant past. Definitely a large earlier (Nanbokucho?) tachi with a nagasa of 78.2cm.

 

Thanks!

post-1009-0-42294100-1564306148_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-81992900-1564306181_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-68180100-1564306203_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-09012900-1564306231_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-27323800-1564306243_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-84259700-1564306259_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-34465500-1564306273_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-28867200-1564306287_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-01650100-1564306394_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-20566500-1564306434_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-05530800-1564306452_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-05592400-1564306507_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-84839400-1564306526_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-41628900-1564306555_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-14610300-1564306578_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-85956300-1564306608_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-85271200-1564306629_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting.... On the plus side are the length, the good deep-sori tachi sugata, the ko-kissaki (all of which point to Kamakura and not Nanbokucho). So, theoretically could be ko-Aoe.

 

On the negative side are the state of the nakago (the patination seems off for me and the rust looks like red, active one - but need to caveat that could be the lighting.... also the shape could indicate slight suriage), the poor state of preservation (particularly that it has been so polished down in light of the koshimoto situation and hamachi and the pits I think I see) and the mei.

 

With regards to the mei, I attach below some examples I have. There are more of course but the attached ones are of the more famous Yoshitsugu smiths. There were several, working from early Kamakura to Nanbokucho. Below is also snapshot of most of the Aoe Bitchu ones from the excellent swordsmith encyclopaedia by Markus Sesko.

 

 

I find way too many differences to your mei when looking at some of the published examples. In fairness, the samples I have also differ quite a bit in the execution of the Yoshitsugu mei across both characters and also I have seen quite a few signed on the omote and on the ura. This is probably because of the high number of smiths bearing that name and long span across which they worked in Bitchu. Then, if one gets comfortable with the nakago patination in hand (I.e. not an old blade with a recently inscribed mei and then aged but the rust looking off), as a next step you could settle onto one of the less famous Yoshitsugu.

 

Examination of the blade itself will be paramount - looking for the (ko) saka ashi, the special layered dan utsuri , fineness of jihada but possible sumigane

Depending on all of that you could try to narrow it to whether indeed Aoe and then koAoe vs Aoe depending on how evolved the dan utsuri and how fine jigane and so on.

 

You should have it examined by a polisher in hand. It seems to have been worn out quite a bit.

post-1910-0-89529900-1564323996_thumb.jpeg

post-1910-0-24893800-1564324010_thumb.jpeg

post-1910-0-79956200-1564324021_thumb.jpeg

post-1910-0-46852400-1564324034_thumb.jpeg

post-1910-0-36848200-1564324049_thumb.jpeg

post-1910-0-27372500-1564324064_thumb.jpeg

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting.... On the plus side are the length, the good deep-sori tachi sugata, the ko-kissaki (all of which point to Kamakura and not Nanbokucho). So, theoretically could be ko-Aoe.

On the negative side are the state of the nakago (the patination seems off for me and the rust looks like red, active one - but need to caveat that could be the lighting.... also the shape could indicate slight suriage), the poor state of preservation (particularly that it has been so polished down in light of the koshimoto situation and hamachi and the pits I think I see) and the mei.

With regards to the mei, I attach below some examples I have. There are more of course but the attached ones are of the more famous Yoshitsugu smiths. There were several, working from early Kamakura to Nanbokucho. Below is also snapshot of most of the Aoe Bitchu ones from the excellent swordsmith encyclopaedia by Markus Sesko.

I find way too many differences to your mei when looking at some of the published examples. In fairness, the samples I have also differ quite a bit in the execution of the Yoshitsugu mei across both characters and also I have seen quite a few signed on the omote and on the ura. This is probably because of the high number of smiths bearing that name and long span across which they worked in Bitchu. Then, if one gets comfortable with the nakago patination in hand (I.e. not an old blade with a recently inscribed mei and then aged but the rust looking off), as a next step you could settle onto one of the less famous Yoshitsugu.

Examination of the blade itself will be paramount - looking for the (ko) saka ashi, the special layered dan utsuri , fineness of jihada but possible sumigane

Depending on all of that you could try to narrow it to whether indeed Aoe and then koAoe vs Aoe depending on how evolved the dan utsuri and how fine jigane and so on.

You should have it examined by a polisher in hand. It seems to have been worn out quite a bit.

Michael,

 

I am definitely very appreciative of the detailed response! Also, thank you for the mei references. The only two I could find any Yoshitsugu fitting the time period was one from the Japanese Sword museum and another posted by Mr. Singer quite a while back, but both were Aoe.

 

Once I return home in a few weeks, I will be taking possession of the sword from my folks. From there I will be examining the sword, and will add more as can, plus detailed photos.

 

The seller, a very nice and older collector of militaria, appears to use flash a bit. He had some knowledge of nihonto, so gave me some more stats as possible.

 

The hamon is a variation of notareba. Thankfully, even with the slight chip on the kissaki, the boshi is intact. Unfortunately, I cannot see anything very clearly with the photos and state of polish, although it doesn't appear to have much overcleaning ad one would expect. No mounts came with the blade, but appeared to have been gunto. Unfortunately, my friend/seller, who bought the blade from a fellow vet in 1974/5, got it in unfortunate circumstances. The veteran had died (younger) and the mounts were lost in the aftermath.

 

As for the nakago, I believe it is the flash making it appear more reddish, as my dad has viewed it too and notes no active rust. If there is I will be stabilizing the rust. I worry at first with the rust was it almost looked firescale on the photos, giving me a fear or saiha. With the suriage or positioning of the mei, plus consistent wear, it had me think it may be original to the blade, whether a gimei attempt or as you stated, possibly one of the other Yoshitsugus.

 

The sori and shape made me think possible Kamakura, but with the name attached, I had made a presumption of it being Nanbokucho, even if gimei Chu-Aoe Yoshitsugu, although blades could have these names attached even if made before or after that period.

 

The blade does look tired. I know the photos may make a lil more pits appear more prominent. Other from the noted flaws in a few of the photographs, it appears that there is one longer possible fukure that was repaired in the past, reminding me of a repair on an Uda wakizashi of mine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, it does look like an old blade and I think I can see the boshi on both sides so that is indeed good, Death-Ace, but I am worried about the putting (photo 7) and it has been polished down a lot (look at hamachi).

The hamon should be mostly suguha with a slight notare and with koashi. The rest - once you get it in hand and see if it needs cleaning with isopropyl and oil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If true Aoe, subject to verification of the workmanship, Aoe smiths signed the opposite way, like Hizen. As mentioned, I have some signature reservations as the mei is different to all my examples, is a bit too small and a bit too close to the mune (I would have expected a bit larger chiselling and more central but I also have some smaller examples).

 

There is obviously no need for acid and I think / hope the OP knows enough about swords not to do that. The blade needs to be looked at by a professional as it appears promising but worn out and pitted in places.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The posted pic. show tachi mei.  I can't see a concrete hamon in the boshi.  To bring it out you can dip the kassaki in ------!   I don't dare mention what to use, out of fear I'll be castrated by the community.  Good luck.

 

 

Tom D.

 

You must be on .... to advise that!

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

People should never jump to conclusions because you never know where you might land.  I have used both vinegar and lemon juice to bring out the hamon, soaking in a rag for five minutes, and rinsing in water. If you think it is unwise, don't do what I do!  Peace.

 

 

Tom D.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Both are acids. Milder, but acids.
And if they get into any open grain, then expect corrosion from the inside out, water or washing are not certain to neutralize.
Anyways...we all know this. Carry one with the rest of the topic..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How did this whole conversation even veer into acid and cleaning? The blade does not need it. In fact, I am positive I can see the boshi even in these photos.

The hamon will probably be visible, the hada will be visible in hand....

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey guys!

 

Thanks for the replies! I am definitely not an advocate for acid or the "lemon/vinegar" technique as I've also seen what it has done to blades. I get the neutralization with bases, but I still don't like it for nihonto. Maybe modern monosteel blades, where there is no real hada. I will not lie, I have done it with a very worn out blade early in my collecting, but doesn't really give any true effect, I feel. I believe it will pop put if done, but do not wish to risk it. But moving onward!

 

Thankfully, I have been studying nihonto more keenly for the past 13 years. A lot of knowledge I hace gained and yet to gain come from the few books I've had, articles, fellow collectors, and very much so this board! Without this place, I'd have been stuck in a rut with my studies I feel if not for this place!

 

I agree with the statements regarding the mei. The Aoe I've seen seem to have larger mei and definitely not near the mune. If it is a gimei, and not some lesser known Yoshitsugu, I feel that it was placed prior the suriage, and to the side to feel more appealing to a prospective customer than a blade with a mekugi-ana in it. Which if this "hole" is indeed the original, then it would have appeared a smoth signed before the chiseling of the mei.

 

I know it has been done, but other blades we have seen where it disrupts the mei appear to have been chiseled above and below the mekugi-ana. However, blades also have mei in different areas, as we know. But Aoe? Most I've seen of other smiths have been the common "middle of the nakago." Other from the known facts, I agree with Michael with it being a lesser known smith, or an older gimei. The second, more recent mekugi-ana appears to be a older, punched one, leading me to believe the possible chance the signature is original to the blade, real or not. Once I have it in hand, I will look it more in depth.

 

As for the hada and hamon. It is unfortunate that the pictures are not as detailed. With some lighting adjustments (aka photoshop), I do see some hada, as well as the hamon running into the nakago as well as a boshi that may be thinning more towards the tip of the kissaki. Definitely once I get home in a few, I'll take some more detailed ones as I study this piece.

 

As for the health, I agree with Michael with it being a very tired old tachi. Pic 7 definitely shows some worrisome delaminations. Looking forward, there is another one i mentioned earlier that looks to have been repaired sometime in its life. The pits are another factor. Whether rust or rough grain and shingane poking through, I will study once I am home. Thankfully, the collector who owned this before me was serious about preservation, no matter swords, guns, or any other militaria.

 

When I first bought this, I had thoughts of it being Kamakura, due to the shape. But scratched my head at the Yoshitsugu signature, with thoughts of gimei. It doesn't seem that era of Nanbokucho as it appears tachi of the time were more "beefier" due to the recent conflicts, especially that of the Mongol invasion. I could not tell. All in all, it is my hopes of it being Kamakura, even being tired. It is an honor, nevertheless, to preserve an old warrior that made it to this time and let it have some rest! With the recent financial/marriage issue situation, this will most likely be the one I keep if things do not work out. Haha. Even with the flaws and suriage, it has always fascinated and humbled me that such blades made it this far, while many were shortened more and discarded in the hundreds of years past. And was called up one time to serve another, modern warrior class.

 

As such stated above, to avoid possbile feuds, I would most likely take this to Yokosuka with me, as that is my next assignment. Time will tell!

 

Again, thank you all and I will update you more! Y'all are the best!

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is interesting sword, caught my eye and interest. I think Michael gave a good info package there above.

 

I'd give bit more leeway with the age. I'd see anything from Kamakura to early Muromachi as plausible options. And as I can not say anything about details in the blade I am just saying that there are few other Yoshitsugu smiths aside from Aoe. There is for example Muromachi Yoshitsugu from Sanjō, Bizen Yoshitsugu from Kamakura and Nanbokuchō, Yoshitsugu from Hokke during Nanbokuchō, those are some lesser known Yoshitsugu I have documented.

 

Will be nice to see better pictures of the sword when you have it in hand. And if details of it point towards Aoe or something else. Hopefully you can get lot more measurements too, curvature, width, thickness etc. I am also throwing up a possibility of long early Muromachi katana out there. There are some strongly curved and long katana too, of course there can just be a false signature added on. Interesting sword to study. :)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Sorry for the wait!

 

Finally home on leave and got possession of the blade. Hefty one and straight. I can confirm the hamon is unbroken, but with the heavy kesho polish, is hard to take pictures, also due to polish and my poor skills. I am going to buy some incandescent bulbs and attempt a reshoot. There is a few areas of delaminations. Has some nice activities, but can't quite make out everything. Will reattempt!

 

Here are some pics and a few dimensions!

 

 

MEI: Mumei

NAGASA: 78.2cm

SUGATA: 8 1/2 in

SORI:

SORI MEASURMENT:

KISSAKI: 1 3/16

KISSAKI MEASURMENT: 1 3/16

MUNE: Iori-mune

KASANE: 1/4 in

Saki-Kasane:

MOTOHABA: 1 3/16

Sakihaba: 3/4 in

NAKAGO CONDITION: Suriage

NAKAGO SHAPE:

MEKUGIANA: Two

YASURIME:

post-1009-0-35294600-1566299695_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-66788000-1566299703_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-12652600-1566299905_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-25553300-1566299914_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-55875100-1566299924_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-96320500-1566299933_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-11380800-1566299944_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-18754000-1566299956_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-16876600-1566299970_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-60238700-1566299984_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-41584000-1566299995_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-36404100-1566300013_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-51924500-1566300031_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-66875500-1566300043_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-60636800-1566300050_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-33616900-1566300058_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-01863700-1566300067_thumb.jpg

post-1009-0-40444000-1566300077_thumb.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...