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#31 Peter Bleed

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 02:46 AM

Okay. The good parts of this thread present DATA and substantive discussion that are useful and clear.There were some bad parts, too.

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#32 TETSUGENDO

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 03:03 AM

Isn't that always the case Peter, excluding the rare exceptions, that's been my experience.

 

-S-


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#33 Fred Geyer

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 03:50 AM

I did buy one but it was 15.00 for the stamped tsuba

 

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#34 Hamfish

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 04:04 AM

Well we can only hope David didn't loose to much money on this very interesting and educational learning curve.
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#35 Stephen

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 04:09 AM

i like Fred's over all the rest.


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#36 Fred Geyer

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 04:41 AM

All,

 

not in the hand maybe looks good at 5 feet but then grab a 5x loop find under cuts find chisel marks the base of the tsuba has nothing no life !

 

again another watch out..... alot of fakes and the stamping is the base of the best out there



#37 Ford Hallam

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 11:26 AM

I wholeheartedly agree with the consensus of comments regarding the clear similarities. It's a copy, and lacks real artistic and craft merit. 

 

And I also agree with Henry's and other's observation regarding civility here.

 

This is forum for the discussion and study of a subject we all enjoy. It you insist on acting like an arrogant or uppity twit you'll soon find your conversations somewhat limited.

 

My own response to snarky or rude posts is to simply block seeing that persons post in the future. It makes for a much more enjoyable visit here.

 

And frankly, if someone can't even make a little effort to behave in a considerate way then I'm buggered if I'll waste a moment trying to help or otherwise enlighten their mean spirited little lives. 

 

As Alexander Solzhenitsyn wrote; "...no good comes from rude people"


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#38 Stephen

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 02:29 PM

Rapping on table in agreement.
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#39 Soshin

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 04:17 PM

Ok guys. Stop it with rude comments attaching me personally. Yes I have reported one comment which is really not helpful or informative. The poster who is new here has likely haven't seen my many other posts and replies of this website starting back as early as 2008.  The tsuba is a reproduction but still is a nice and likely vintage reproduction and will be noted as such on my website. I disagree with Ford on one point when he says that it lack craft merit. It displays a remarkable level of craftsmanship in the casting and hand finishing of the reproduction itself.  Like I said and it should be emphasize I didn't pay much for it so no harm was really done. Case is now closed time to move on.     


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#40 Bob M.

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 04:38 PM

Ergo QED ? ( colloq. )


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#41 TETSUGENDO

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 05:30 PM

David,

 

Again, everyone here has nothing but good intentions, their desire is to assist and educate you and this community.   You, of course, have the freedom to ignore factual advice......so you  present faux facts which support comments that have no foundation instead .  All the protestations on Earth will not turn a Sow's ear into a silk purse.   "Case is now closed time to move on", clearly we , as Sisyphus, are destined to repeat this scenario for all of eternity.

 

-S-


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#42 peterd

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 06:09 PM

Very interesting topic. It fooled David and would have very likely fooled a beginner like myself. Copies ( casts) are getting to good.


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#43 Soshin

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 07:16 PM

There you go StevenK with personal attacks again. When did I present 'faux facts'?  See my quote below.  I just stated that this tsuba was the 'focus of my current study' and that I was thinking it was maybe late Edo Period or Meiji Period.  :bang:  

 

David,

 

Again, everyone here has nothing but good intentions, their desire is to assist and educate you and this community.   You, of course, have the freedom to ignore factual advice......so you  present faux facts which support comments that have no foundation instead .  All the protestations on Earth will not turn a Sow's ear into a silk purse.   "Case is now closed time to move on", clearly we , as Sisyphus, are destined to repeat this scenario for all of eternity.

 

-S-

 

 

 

Here is a quick preview of a fine copper tsuba that I am currently researching and will put up on my Tsuba Otaku website (www.tsubaotaku.com) homepage August 1st. It measures 8.0 cm wide by 8.0 cm high. It is 5.0 mm at the seppa-dai and thinner at 3.0 mm towards the rim. I will be sending photos of it to Bob Haynes tomorrow to get this feedback. The design is that of dragon and phoenix which commonly represent opposing forces a concept of dualism in ancient Chinese philosophy (yin and yang) importanted later into Japan. Everyone's polite comments and discussion are always welcome. Thank you. 

David Stiles

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#44 Brian

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 07:28 PM

David, you do do this.
"Not cast at all or a reproduction. Many of your guys grasping at straws. Thanks anyway but closing down and need to get back to work." should have read:
"I personally don't agree for reasons of my own, but will take the suggestions on board and give it more thought"
How much easier that would be. It sounds like "I don't like the comments and so I am not playing anymore"

That said, we don't hold it against you, we all learn from these discussions and will continue to assist you where we can. We have all made the same mistakes. Most of these would fool many of us (myself included) and it is nothing personal....don't make it so by forcing the guys to get their back up.
It is hard enough to get opinions..never mind Ford's...so sometimes it is better to back down and live to fight another day.

It's over...we can all get back to what we all love doing. No harm done, let's get over it and enjoy the other good Japanese stuff out there.

 


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#45 TETSUGENDO

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 07:34 PM

David,

 

No 'personal' attacks David, just stating facts.  Brian's statement says it all.


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#46 Ford Hallam

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 02:21 AM

bye bye David.


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#47 Fred Geyer

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 04:27 AM

David,

 

i would not say anything on something like this but i think i have to and ….FYI you have hit me personally also, 

 

so when i started everyone was a ass that i asked questions to ...zero internet ....zero books just the old timers and i got nothing only stuiped looks

 

so now with a group like this.…. it is great !!!!!! tons of ideas and comments to the point ....this hobby/study you learn every day.  

 

if you think you are the smartest person in the room "group" then you are in the wrong room, trust me I know a lot but I know nothing to others

 

everyday in this hobby is going to school and learning.... so get out your note book and learn.

 

last thing my grandfather said a lot …….the ones who keep talking don't have time listen    

 

Fred  


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#48 Soshin

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 08:14 PM

Thank you so much Alex.  This information is very helpful to my research. I liked you comment but also wanted to thank you more directly.    

 

Here is one polite comment.
It's a cast repro and a "blank" for this "joint work of Goto Ichijo and Tanaka Kiyotoshi"  :doubt:
It's not a straw, it's a log, I'm very sorry.
 
Check this post on FB, we update it with Ian from time to time and of course everyone is welcome to add their "mistakes"  ;-)
 

 

 


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Website: http://www.tsubaotaku.com/


#49 Soshin

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Posted 20 July 2019 - 11:00 PM

Hello Fred,

I am deeply sorry for my arrogance. Consider this a formal apology. Thanks for the helpful information and your support of the American Branch of the NBTHK.
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David Stiles

Owner and Founder of Rain Dragon Fine Art and Antiques

Website: https://www.raindragonfinearts.com/

Website: http://www.tsubaotaku.com/


#50 Henry Wilson

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Posted 21 July 2019 - 12:04 AM

I am deeply offend that I don't get a special thanks. I tried to bring some humour with the 'angry lizard' gag. 😡 🦎 😭









(Actually, its only a joke. I don't really care one way or another)
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#51 Ford Hallam

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Posted 21 July 2019 - 01:07 PM

I'm not posting to inflame passions further but there is a specific detail I'd like to point out so that those who care to learn and 'with eyes to see' might be better armed in future encounters with pieces like the under discussion.

 

post-14-0-48238200-1563406112.png

 

Referring to the handy images Henry composited for us, Thanks Henry (see...I'm happy to offer my gratitude  :laughing: )

 

I think most of us are in agreement that the tsuba was created by means of stamping.

 

Just as with coins, this process is designed to produce a raised impression that requires no further finishing of the metal surface. Colouring and plating.are obviously optional extras.

 

The most obvious clue that this tsuba was stamped is the background texture/finish.

 

When the die was carved they created a sort of indented texture all over the surface of the die on the area that would be the deepest on the stamped item. It might have been  simple hammer and punch work or even perhaps little divots carved out. Judging from the way some of the dimples are arranged in rows and sort of overlap each other I'd suggest a punched texture.

 

This indented texture will naturally produce a reverse impression, what we see here, an odd lumpy texture. And one that would be very time consuming and tricky to carve, not to mention that it's an effect we never see on genuine antique pieces.

 

While we might have to concede that whoever carved the die is fairly skilful but as the die was made to deliberately deceive the resulting piece loses any artistic merit or validity.  An honest reproduction poster of the Mona Lisa can claim more artistic credibility in that respect. As to any craft value inherent in the stamped tsuba-like-object,  I'd suggest it would be on a par with any cheap holiday curio trinket.

 

There is, of course a huge discussion to be had surrounding faking and forgery, and artistic merit etc. but having it here would be a futile exercise. There are a number of excellent books that explore the matter, written by real art experts and philosophers, one of the best, imo, is a collection of essays presenting many viewpoints from a number of specialists. The Forger's Art: Forgery and the Philosophy of Art. edited by Denis Dutton. I'd also recommend his, The Art Instinct: Beauty, Pleasure, and Human Evolution.

 
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#52 Brian

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Posted 21 July 2019 - 01:22 PM

Just to be 100% clear, are we saying both are stamped copies, or only one?
I notice the scales on David's appear sharper than the other. Or is it just the lighting? I assume what looks to be undercarving is also an optical illusion?
 


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#53 Henry Wilson

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Posted 21 July 2019 - 01:27 PM

Thank you Ford for the enlightening explanation.

Might I add, books recommend by Ford are always a worthwhile read. The merit of copies and forges is an area that I find very interesting so I going to check out those books you list. Maybe some summer reading to be had.
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#54 Ford Hallam

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Posted 21 July 2019 - 01:36 PM

both stamped Brian, and almost certainly a few more out there. I think the apparent difference may simply be that David's tsuba is a better image. But you'll notice some flat areas on the high spots too, the left claw and flames etc. That's where the die didn't quite press down far enough to leave a full impression. That's why it's pretty level and flat, not rounded over as would be the case if it was wear from age and handling.


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#55 Nikanoru

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Posted 21 July 2019 - 01:37 PM

Just to be 100% clear, are we saying both are stamped copies, or only one?

Both with different degree of customization. Signatures look fine in general but they are copied/scanned from a source and laser engraved. I’m 100% sure neither Ichijo nor Kiyotoshi has ever produced such piece in their career.

#56 Ford Hallam

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Posted 21 July 2019 - 01:47 PM

Alex,

 

my partner regularly has jewellery work she produces laser engraved and our hallmarks are routinely lasered but I very much doubt these signature we done that way. More likely simply clever chiselling.



#57 Nikanoru

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Posted 21 July 2019 - 02:16 PM

Could be.
To have someone chisel it would cost more than the piece itself :)

#58 Ford Hallam

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Posted 21 July 2019 - 03:50 PM

Hmmm, I'll chisel any mei you like for £30 but I reckon there are others who will be cheaper.

If adding a suitable one allows the seller to get a few 100 quid for a tsuba that makes pretty good sense, don't you think.

#59 Nikanoru

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Posted 21 July 2019 - 04:31 PM

If Fred got his copy for $15 then you just confirmed the statement ;)
Cheers,

#60 Peter Bleed

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Posted 21 July 2019 - 05:00 PM

Thank you, Ford, for turning this thread around. I considered just walking away from the NMB over the tone and content of the early discussion. But you very skillfully brought us back to specific content and useful insight. I'll be going to the library this afternoon!

Peter


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