C. Nolan's The Allure of Battle .....and nippon-to

[Peter Bleed]

The events and tragedy of WWII gets rather little attention here on NMB. Oh, to be sure there is interest in gunto and swordsmithing of the wartime era. But I think we rarely remember that Japanese sword collecting in the world is as it is today a result of the end of WWII. “We” have got these wonderful art of objects because Japan cataclysmically lost WWII. I think that means that we sword collectors ought to consider the events and processes of the war.

In that light let me say that I have just finished reading the Japan-related sections of Chatal Nolan’s The Allure of Battle and it helped me understand nippon-to. I recommend it to this august community. You will appreciate it!

The book is a grand assessment of global military history and the Japan section is but a part. The treatment of Japan is, however, very good. It never mentions swords, but it makes clear conditions that let Japan pour resources into making what we know were the best swords in the world while at the same time the nation produced a total of FOUR (4) oil tankers during the War! While Britain was “arming up” to deal with Nazi Germany, Japanese military leaders favored “arming down” and depending on inferior opponents, superior will, and the ammunition of flesh.

Like I said, read this book! It will make you a better sword collector.

Peter

[Bruce Pennington]

Appreciate the book recommendation Peter! I'd say you underestimate the passion of blade collectors when it comes to history and WWII though. I hardly read anything about the European side of WWII because my time is taken with the endless supply of books and stories of the Pacific war.

 

You just won't see a lot of that talk here, though, as these forums are topic specific, and this one is about military swords.

[PNSSHOGUN]

It's that reason alone the Mantetsu swords are such a fascination, all that R&D, time, machinery etc etc just to produce a virtually useless weapon in the scope of modern day fighting.

[Bruce Pennington]

Wonder what kind if weaponry/ship/aircraft could have been built with the steel of a million swords?

[16k]

Speaking of books, and not flattering for Japan, The Rape of Nanking is something to read. It is controversial and truth is probably somewhere in the middle, but those events are frightening and show the darkest side of human nature during war.

[lonely panet]

forget the rape of Nanking, read the  Analyzing the “Photographic Evidence” of Nanking Incident

 

 

 this book is really interesting,  if you ever want to read a book of a nation trying to forget what they did . but I felt soiled for enjoying reading it, as a person whos grandfather spend a few years in a POW camp run by das Deutsche

[Brian]

forget the rape of Nanking, read the  Analyzing the “Photographic Evidence” of Nanking Incident

 

 

 this book is really interesting,  if you ever want to read a book of a nation trying to forget what they did . but I felt soiled for enjoying reading it, as a person whos grandfather spend a few years in a POW camp run by das Deutsche

http://www.sdh-fact.com/CL02_1/26_S4.pdf

Makes for interesting if not controversial reading.

[PNSSHOGUN]

While admittedly a few of those photos are certainly wrongly attributed or doctored there are alot that are certainly real and the mental gymnastics the author has come up with to explain otherwise are staggering.

[Dave R]

Wonder what kind if weaponry/ship/aircraft could have been built with the steel of a million swords.

   

 Enough to make a difference, I doubt it .This is probably why Seki used a lot of scrapped Rail track, and why you get antique blades in WW2 mounts. Mantetsu made a lot of other things for the war effort, and I think the swords were a bit of a side show. Moral boosting and good PR, but not engaging a lot of resources why else would production be low enough to create a waiting list.  Apart from the arsenal produced NCO swords most new production (in my opinion anyway) was jobbed out to small firms without the machinery to produce guns or engines, and employed craftsmen without the skills for such either.

 We are now aware of the problems the IJA  and IJN had with supply of Gunto, and I suspect a lot of that was due to priorities, resources were directed to modern weapons rather than blades,

Sword production was good for moral, and engaged craftsmen and workshops who would otherwise have done little for the war effort.... Most Ito Maki was done by school girls for example!

[Bruce Pennington]

Good points Dave! I agree it would not have changed the outcome of the war. And while the sword was not solely responsible for the fighting spirit of the Japanese soldier, it was an inseperable part of the who they were. Many, many an Allied soldier was flabergasted at the tenacity of the Japanese fighting man.

[vajo]

The sword was the soul of the Japanese nation in the conflict. What the single Japanese soldier has done was not the way of the country, it was in the responsibility of the leadership. The history is only written by the winners of wars in all the history of the mankind.

[TETSUGENDO]

The whole 'thing' was insane, some grand delusion concocted by a groupe of covetous old men.  Whatever additional resources could be cobbled together would not change the tide.  If you wish to pick a fight....don't choose the biggest kid in the schoolyard.

 

What a tragic waste,

               -S-

[Dave R]

 Following the route to WW2 is an engaging exercise. The Reich had a plan, and one that had worked to a certain extent before in 1870. Japan seems to have stumbled into the war when a standard 19th century style colonial operation in Manchuria blew up into an ever expanding conflict.

 I remember a conversation where a friend questioned why Western Nations provided military training to "emergent nations" officers. My take on it was that it gave potential troublemakers a clear idea of just how wrong a conflict could go when engaging a Western army. I suspect Russia runs a similar program.... My personal opinion is that  trouble tends to irrupt from Commanders and Dictators without that experience.

 Thus the difference between Tojo and Yamamoto  and their expectations of how the war would develop.

[Peter Bleed]

Wonder what kind if weaponry/ship/aircraft could have been built with the steel of a million swords?

There has been more reaction to my post than I suspected there might be. Please let me use Bruce's question as a point of further discussion.

The issue is less about what the Japanese might have done with the resources that were put into sword production, then what swords may reflect about the thinking of Japanese leaders who decided to undertake simultaneous war again China, Britain, Holland, Australia,  the US, and USSR. What in the world were they thinking?

This community can enjoyed swords as art and historic artifacts. We can even spend serious personal income on them, but those are trivial issues. War is different.

 

Another book that seems to offer insights into how the War developed toward its resolution is

Marc Gallicchio and Waldo Heinrich

Implacable Foes War in the Pacific, 1944-1945

Oxford University Press 2017

Peter

 

 

that

[lambo35]

Dave, I believe you are correct. The commander of the Japanese forces on Iwo Jima, having spent some time in the USA prior to WW2,  like Yamamoto, realized the strength America's industrial potential. They both knew Japan could not defeat, only slowdown the Western powers.

 

 

Chuck.

[zook]

Deep thoughts! - good references!  

The historical part is VAST and fascinating, and I am a historian and part time tour guide ...but like Bruce, I normally don't want to digress in this venue . 

I will share that I get to chat with a lot of young folks (young is a relative term for me), and I am surprised that while many of them are fascinated with WW2, when I pick their brains the knowledge is icing-layer thick.   Many young folks bad mouth the Italians and Japanese as war-fighting foes in comparison to the Germans.  On the surface - fair point.  
Let me share an over-simplified set of examples regarding the larger (Japan, Germany, Italy) Axis powers:  

 

1. Arguably both Japan and Italy hit their apex of military success or "boon" in the late 1920s/early 1930s … their own modernizations, if you will ...and if you know Italian military history, those dudes were "spent" by the time WW2 kicked into high gear  - many good Italian units were at a morale lowpoint from extended tours in African colonies and the Spanish Civil War  (German investment in Spain minimal by comparison).   Whereas the German military started ramping up hard in the mid/late 1930s ….one can find reasons where Italian and Japanese military started to stagnate.   

 

2.  The Italians and Japanese had very WEAK "S&T" (science and technology advancement)  programs overall, in comparison to the Germans and the allies.   It goes broader than the sword.  There are records showing discussions where they (IJA leadership) did not believe the submachine gun was a worthy investment for future infantry tactics, hence the very limited production and quality.  Of course we can argue that they didn't have the economic infrastructure for it …. but, it is what it is -  poor S&T on a war that lasts (for Japan) greater than a decade is a recipe for disaster.    

 

3.   Japan and Italy had monarchies … Germany did not.  It's well known by some that for Italy, the King knew Mussolini had to go, therefore we have the famous imprisonment, rescue and puppet resurrection of Benito.    I find that less folks know that Hideki Tojo was given the boot as Prime Minister late in WW2, because he was found to be ineffective, and the Emperor wanted new leadership that could help the country "safe face" in the looming disaster.   Too little too late. 

 

I am not trying to patronize my fellow forum members or pick a fight, as you folks are probably very familiar with the points I over-simplified in the above,  but again … I find it fascinating how many folks think they are learned on the subject, have NO IDEA about these same matters.    As WW2 falls into the distant past and veterans die off,  I fear all of this stuff (including Nanking, etc..) may fade into the sunset.   

 

Ok ...sorry  … passionate thoughts that I wanted to share!  Dan 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Japanese firearms are one of the more bizarre and perplexing development cycles in history, they made some of the worst and madcap guns we've ever seen for a regular army. The ammunition situation alone is baffling, 4 different types of cartridges for the standard infantry weapons alone, none of them interchangeable! 

[zook]

Spot on John! ... 

... And for the handguns, I have a type 26 revolver that I can't fire because the 8mm round was so unique, nobody manufactures to it, and for my Type 97  Nambu - I am scared to shoot it! ...not just because it tends to go off without pulling the trigger (details, details ...   ) ... but because the craftsmanship seems so shoddy.  If I were issued that handgun as an officer, I would be disgusted.   

[Brian]

Type 97 or Type 94?
Type 94 with the "suicide bar"
Yeah, don't shoot mine either. Ammo is available in the USA, but the design doesn't lend itself to regular shooting. Anyways...back on track, sorry for the off topic

[zook]

Sorry Brian - typo ... Type 94.  Yes, ...totally won't shoot mine either, and I can't say it's pretty to look at