Jump to content


Photo

What school does this armorer belong to?


  • Please log in to reply
36 replies to this topic

#1 Nickupero

Nickupero

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 540 posts
  • LocationMontreal

Posted 22 May 2019 - 03:09 AM

Using our great resources here, reaching out the Katchu folks in hopes of finding out which school this piece belongs to. Mei reads Terunaga Saku. Also forgot what you call this style kabuto? Sorry for the so so iPhone pictures but I think you get an idea. Thanks in advance!

 

IMG_2345.jpg IMG_2344.jpg


Nick Ricupero
nihontoart.com


#2 uwe

uwe

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 952 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 22 May 2019 - 08:14 AM

Hi Nick,

this smith is not listed. So I have to dig a bit deeper.....
Picture of the mei available?
Uwe Sacklowski

#3 IanB

IanB

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,637 posts
  • LocationUK

Posted 22 May 2019 - 11:01 AM

Uwe,  Didn't we see a helmet where the haraidate ended in a fleur-de-lis recently or am I imagining it?

Ian Bottomley.



#4 uwe

uwe

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 952 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 22 May 2019 - 06:04 PM

Uwe,  Didn't we see a helmet where the haraidate ended in a fleur-de-lis recently or am I imagining it?

Ian Bottomley.

 

Yes Ian,

your memory serves you. Gut feeling says Haruta or later Myôchin. I´m still searching....


Uwe Sacklowski

#5 uwe

uwe

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 952 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 22 May 2019 - 07:55 PM

.....I guess you meant this one:

 

Masanori.jpg

 

"Masanori saku"!

 

 

 


Uwe Sacklowski

#6 Shogun8

Shogun8

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 282 posts
  • LocationToronto, Canada

Posted 23 May 2019 - 12:32 AM

Nick,

 

Based on the shape of the mabezashi, the haraidate dai and the sanko no byo, I believe this kabuto may be from the Ichiguchi Myochin.


  • Ubu san likes this

John - Always learning.


#7 Bugyotsuji

Bugyotsuji

    Kokuho

  • Members
  • 5,846 posts
  • LocationJapan

Posted 23 May 2019 - 03:51 AM

I have heard people referring to this style as Tenkoku-zan (rear mountain) 32? Ken, Tetsu-sabi-ji (russet iron) higaki (decoration around base of hachi).


Piers D

平常心 Heijoshin

#8 uwe

uwe

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 952 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 23 May 2019 - 07:47 AM

Nick,
 
Based on the shape of the mabezashi, the haraidate dai and the sanko no byo, I believe this kabuto may be from the Ichiguchi Myochin.


More “Owari related”, I suspect John!
Uwe Sacklowski

#9 IanB

IanB

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,637 posts
  • LocationUK

Posted 23 May 2019 - 11:51 AM

This really has me beaten. There are features that are unusual, not only the fleur-de-lis tail on the haraidate, but the single hole in the haraidate, the very large mabezashi held in place by a kind of zaboshi as are the shiten no byo, and most peculiar, the concave shape where the mabezashi meets the koshimaki. I am ignoring the rather odd shaped shinodare and higaki plates as they may well have been added later. My gut reaction is that it is a Myochin piece, but not mainline.

Ian Bottomley


  • Ubu san likes this

#10 DaveT

DaveT

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 376 posts
  • LocationUK - Northants

Posted 23 May 2019 - 03:28 PM

Maybe it was made by a katchushi in the 1950's?

The shikoro has also been off as the byo are misplaced and kabuto-no-o himo are in the wrong ana.
I often am suspicious of things when they don't add up.


  • Curran and Chishiki like this

David Thatcher - Katchushi Koubou UK       http://yoroi.uk

Professional Conservator and Restorer of Japanese Armour


#11 Shogun8

Shogun8

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 282 posts
  • LocationToronto, Canada

Posted 23 May 2019 - 03:33 PM

I am ignoring the rather odd shaped shinodare and higaki plates as they may well have been added later. My gut reaction is that it is a Myochin piece, but not mainline.

Ian Bottomley

 

I agree, Ian. I think we need to consider this kabuto without the kanamono because they do not seem to fit with this piece. The shape of the hachi, especially at the top and the mabezashi/haraidate details say Ichiguchi Myochin to me, since their style is quite distinctive.


John - Always learning.


#12 Nickupero

Nickupero

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 540 posts
  • LocationMontreal

Posted 23 May 2019 - 06:00 PM

Thanks guys for chiming in, I'm quite certain this is an Edo Era piece. The inside of the Hachi is probably just as important if not more than the outside, so maybe this will help with the discussion. Took a couple of pictures with my iPhone, an older model so the camera isn't superb. 

 

IMG_4787.jpg IMG_4790.jpg IMG_4788.jpg


Nick Ricupero
nihontoart.com


#13 Shogun8

Shogun8

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 282 posts
  • LocationToronto, Canada

Posted 23 May 2019 - 06:32 PM

Nick,

 

I think this kabuto is definitely from the Edo period, but whether it's early Edo or not is another matter. Neither the Shin Katchushi Meikan or the Chappelear lists a Masanori as belonging to the Ichiguchi Myochin, but as we all know, there are many unrecorded smiths. If you look closely, this kabuto shares many characteristics of that beautiful koboshi Ichiguchi Myochin that you recently had.


  • Ubu san likes this

John - Always learning.


#14 uwe

uwe

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 952 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 23 May 2019 - 08:55 PM

Well,

 

I can understand the Ichiguchi call, based on the shape and workmanship of "Masanobu" (市口明珍正信), a recorded Ichiguchi Myochin smith from Edo. See picture below:

 

Ichiguchi Masanobu.JPG

 

Although totally diffrent from Fujiwara Masatsugu (藤原正次), also Ichiguchi. But that leads too far.....

 

My Owari search ended unfortunataly in a blind alley....C’est la vie :neutral:

 

However, the interesting point is, that the kabuto I postet above is signed "Masanori saku" (正則作) and sports almost the same characteristics as the mentioned "Masanobu" example and the kabuto in question. "Masanori" is not listet as an Ichiguchi smith. But because he uses the same character for "Masa" (正) in his mei, like "Masanobu", we can probably assume, that he was also in the lineage of the "horsebit guys".

 

All in all, despite the odd mei "Terunaga" (輝長?), I have to admit John, that the most indications pointing towards "Ichiguchi Myochin" (市口明珍) at the moment :)

 

Nick, can you make a close up of the mei? Hard to read!

 


Uwe Sacklowski

#15 Shogun8

Shogun8

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 282 posts
  • LocationToronto, Canada

Posted 23 May 2019 - 11:26 PM

There was no question in my mind, Uwe! :glee:


John - Always learning.


#16 uwe

uwe

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 952 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 24 May 2019 - 12:30 PM

😄....as you know John. We never can be sure! First rule....there are no rules in the katchu world 😉
Uwe Sacklowski

#17 DaveT

DaveT

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 376 posts
  • LocationUK - Northants

Posted 24 May 2019 - 01:32 PM

Always learning.


David Thatcher - Katchushi Koubou UK       http://yoroi.uk

Professional Conservator and Restorer of Japanese Armour


#18 Shogun8

Shogun8

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 282 posts
  • LocationToronto, Canada

Posted 24 May 2019 - 02:57 PM

....as you know John. We never can be sure! First rule....there are no rules in the katchu world

 

Of course - but that's why I said that the conclusion was mine only - arrived at with the information I had available to me and other pieces that I have seen that share the same characteristics. I'm always open to being proved wrong. The most important thing is to learn as much as possible about the item.


  • uwe likes this

John - Always learning.


#19 IanB

IanB

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,637 posts
  • LocationUK

Posted 24 May 2019 - 03:56 PM

I've loaded the signature image into other software and applied filters and I am not wholly convince the first kanji is Teru.. It is possible that it is a bady written Mune.. and there are plenty of Munenaga to go at.

Ian Bottomley


  • Ubu san likes this

#20 Nickupero

Nickupero

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 540 posts
  • LocationMontreal

Posted 24 May 2019 - 04:36 PM

Here are some images of the Mei, maybe I got it wrong?

 

Image_2019-05-24 18_08_15_067.jpg


  • uwe likes this

Nick Ricupero
nihontoart.com


#21 Ubu san

Ubu san

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 253 posts
  • LocationBelgium

Posted 26 May 2019 - 02:22 PM

Stylistic, it is Ichiguchi Myochin. Also the aspect of the iron points in that direction. The exagerated shinodare are a part of their style.
<p>Luc TaelmanJapanese Armor Society. www.Japanese-armor.org/eng
Western Branch of the 日本甲冑武具研究保存会 Nihon Katchu Bugu Kenkyu Hozon Kai.

#22 Ubu san

Ubu san

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 253 posts
  • LocationBelgium

Posted 26 May 2019 - 03:01 PM

Munenaga is indeed possible Ian.
And there is an Ichiguchi Munenaga.
<p>Luc TaelmanJapanese Armor Society. www.Japanese-armor.org/eng
Western Branch of the 日本甲冑武具研究保存会 Nihon Katchu Bugu Kenkyu Hozon Kai.

#23 IanB

IanB

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,637 posts
  • LocationUK

Posted 26 May 2019 - 05:03 PM

So far nobody, including myself, has alluded to or mentioned the kanji following  -naga. I have had a good look for a possible reading and drawn a blank. It does not seem to be related to the helmet's making (such as SAKU), the maker's age, a title or clan name or anything else I can think of.  Help!!

Ian Bottomley



#24 Ubu san

Ubu san

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 253 posts
  • LocationBelgium

Posted 26 May 2019 - 06:13 PM

Sorry, I can’t help...
<p>Luc TaelmanJapanese Armor Society. www.Japanese-armor.org/eng
Western Branch of the 日本甲冑武具研究保存会 Nihon Katchu Bugu Kenkyu Hozon Kai.

#25 Shogun8

Shogun8

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 282 posts
  • LocationToronto, Canada

Posted 26 May 2019 - 06:41 PM

The exagerated shinodare are a part of their style.

 

You're right, Luc - I went back to look at some other examples and the strange shinodare and the igaki are indeed part of their style.


  • Ubu san likes this

John - Always learning.


#26 Bugyotsuji

Bugyotsuji

    Kokuho

  • Members
  • 5,846 posts
  • LocationJapan

Posted 27 May 2019 - 09:21 AM

Ian, the last character may be 作, with a little artistic license.

Look at some of the variations lower down this page!
https://moji.tekkai....oom/作/page.html
  • Ubu san likes this
Piers D

平常心 Heijoshin

#27 IanB

IanB

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,637 posts
  • LocationUK

Posted 27 May 2019 - 10:55 AM

Piers, point taken.

Ian B



#28 uwe

uwe

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 952 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 27 May 2019 - 07:19 PM

“昨” (saku), but with a different meaning.
Uwe Sacklowski

#29 Nickupero

Nickupero

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 540 posts
  • LocationMontreal

Posted 30 May 2019 - 01:07 AM

Thanks Gents for pouring in the effort for this one,

So would most of you agree it is most like Munenage and not Terunaga, from Ichiguchi Myochin school? Any documents supporting a Mei of this maker? 


Nick Ricupero
nihontoart.com


#30 Ubu san

Ubu san

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 253 posts
  • LocationBelgium

Posted 31 May 2019 - 07:15 PM

Nick, do you have a copy of the Chappelear or the Shin katchushi meikan? Munenaga is recorded in both if I remember well. but it requirs some experience with this group to recognise them.
<p>Luc TaelmanJapanese Armor Society. www.Japanese-armor.org/eng
Western Branch of the 日本甲冑武具研究保存会 Nihon Katchu Bugu Kenkyu Hozon Kai.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

IPB Skin By Virteq