Old blade?

[IbexiSterlinfa]

A friend of mine sent me a picture of a signed blade and wanted my opinion on it. I haven't seen a mei with this kind of script, so I was kind of skeptical. The mounts are falling apart, and it doesn't appear to be a gunto sword. It bears hamon and has a full-length cutout in the blade which I think is a bo-hi? I suspect that the blade is much older than the mounts, so I am seeking a professional opinion. I can get more information or pictures if need be, any info helps. Thanks very much.

[Ray Singer]

Mei is Hizen no kuni Tadayoshi.

[Ray Singer]

https://nihontoclub.com/view/smiths/meisearch?type=All&mei_op=contains&mei=肥前國忠吉

[IbexiSterlinfa]

Thanks so much Ray! Quick response too! I will relay your information to my friend.

[Ray Singer]

I would suggest that he remove the nail from the tsuka (handle) and make a more conventional mekugi out of wood. A chopstick can be used. Here is some reference information for your friend.

 

http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Etiquette.htm

[IbexiSterlinfa]

I will advise him about the mekugi, I agree that it detracts from the blade. I did receive more detailed pictures, is it possible to determine the approximate age? I have received information that there are several generations associated with Tadayoshi, just trying to get the full picture. Thanks for the information!

[PNSSHOGUN]

The sword looks to be of good quality to my eyes with decent quality Fuchi and Tsuba. A family blade remounted for the war, your friend has done the right thing by leaving it alone. May very well be worth appraisal.

[IbexiSterlinfa]

So as it turns out my friend has just sold the blade to me. I should be receiving it late this week. John mentioned an appraisal, where can this be done and what is involved? Is this a dealer appraisal or would this be part of the papering process? I would really like to know the generation and age of this blade, but I do not have any resources to consult on achieving that goal.

 

I will definitely be fixing the nail in the mekugi hole. I have spare wooden mekugi available to fix that. The mounts to me do not do the blade justice, could/should it be remounted to better protect it and increase the value? I have been told about Shirasaya, but I don't know what that entails as I have never remounted a blade.

 

Any advice for a new Tadayoshi owner? Thanks everyone for the information so far!

[Brian]

The first thing to know about owning a Tadayoshi is that this is one of the most faked signatures, and there are far more false signatures than real ones...I would say chances are about 20% it is real.
That said...always remember that a false signature (gimei) is not the end of the world, and there are plenty of decent swords that are gimei, and that they have been doing this for hundreds of years. Not saying it is gimei, but you should be prepared if it is.
Still an old and antique and genuine Japanese sword. Others will advise how to take it from here. Oil it....keep it wiped down with oil, and NOTHING abrasive in cleaning it. And don't clean the tang.

[IbexiSterlinfa]

Thanks for letting me know Brian. I did not know that was a possibility. Is there any way to verify the validity of the signature without papering the blade? If it turns out to be a false signature, does it retain any value?

[IbexiSterlinfa]

I'll provide a little backstory in case this helps to prove if it's gimei or a true Tadayoshi. It was a bringback from a veteran who served in WW2, and also lived in Japan a few years before bringing it home. Upon bringing it back (along with several other items which are now sold, 2 of which being southeast Asian blades represented as Japanese) his family was told that this sword in particular was gunto. They referred to it as gunto and just assumed that is what it was. They didn't have any notion of what a gunto is, and upon inquiring about the original gunto mounts, they had never seen any of the military pattern mounts. To my knowledge, it has been in these same mounts since it left Japan a few years after WW2. 

 

Here is where I am speculating that it may be fake. The blade is not sharp except for 3 inches from the tip along the cutting edge. The seller says that the cutting edge from above the tsuba to the first curvature of the blade is blunt, but not from use? I can't imagine if this was a wartime capture that it wouldn't be sharp, and if it wasn't remounted during this veteran's time in Japan, it couldn't have seen service. This paired with the fact that it was referred to as gunto makes me wonder if it was purchased/given to the veteran during his time in Japan and not as a result of a sword capture.

 

I am leaning toward reproduction, but I have not seen nearly as much as the experts that reside here. Does anyone have any more researched opinions on this blade? Please let me know.

[Ray Singer]

There is absolutely no possibility that the sword is a reproduction. It is only a question of whether the signature is authentic (signed by one of the actual Hizen smiths using the mei Tadayoshi). Gimei (forged signature) of famous smiths is relatively common and does not necessarily mean that the sword itself is of poor quality.

 

You have an authentic, antique, traditionally-made Japanese sword.

[uwe]

Ray is right Sterlin!!!

[IbexiSterlinfa]

Thanks for the reassurance. Is it common for the blade to be blunt? I found that to be very strange.

 

The consensus I am hearing is that it is a quality blade. I am seriously scared that it may be gimei, even if that doesn't mean it's a low quality blade to me it just doesn't feel right. Is there any way to verify who exactly made this blade since there were many people writing Tadayoshi on their blade? Is this only a result of the papering process? Is it even worth it to have this one judged?

 

Quite a rollercoaster of emotions in this blade. I just don't know whats right to do with this blade. I am familiar with proper maintenance so to have it sit is not a problem for me, it just makes me wonder what exactly I have sitting in my safe...

 

Thanks very much for the analysis Ray.

[Ray Singer]

Contact Roger Robertshaw at http://www.hizento.net. He (literally) wrote the book on the Hizen Tadayoshi school. He is also in this group using the member name omidaijo.

[Brian]

They say there are more gimei Japanese swords in existence than shoshin (real) signed ones.
That just means it is no trains-mash if it is. They were doing gimei at the time these swords were made already. It is part of collecting Japanese swords.
Check out the FAQ at the top right of the forum for the section on reasons for gimei.
Really, don't stress about it too much. There are lovely swords out there with false signatures.

[IbexiSterlinfa]

Thanks for the advice Ray. I have reached out to Roger to get his feedback and see if he can provide insight into the blade. I'm also considering his book, the Tadayoshi line of smiths seems to be quite popular and interesting!

 

I will check out the resources on Gimei. Thanks for the information.

[Bruce Pennington]

Sterlin,

 

Check out this thread on the Sharpening and Dulling of blades from Nick Komiya at Warrelics: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/sharpening-dulling-blades-were-taken-granted-675938/

 

I can't say for sure that your blade was dulled for this reason, but it is a possibility.

[Tom Darling]

The mei is slightly broad (description of the shape) and deep?  Peace.

 

Tom D.

[IbexiSterlinfa]

I had gotten in touch with Roger Robertshaw about this blade, and his best estimation is a 4th Generation Tadayoshi. I have the blade in my possession now so I will post some better pictures sometime soon. It has three family crests, which Mr. Robertshaw says are of the Nabeshima Daimyo. I do plan to go ahead and paper the blade and it has been maintained properly so it has no risk of further damage to it.

[Tom Darling]

Hi Sterlin,

 

Best estimation sounds like he wasn't so sure, it may turn out to be fifth or sixth gen? which are, also  very good  Roger is one of the best authorities on Hizen, therefore, his conclusion may be correct, in any case, you got the best advice, have it papered. When I get my camera working properly I will post my  fourth gen. Thank you.  Good luck. Peace.

 

 

Tom D.

[Kaigunto230]

@IbexiSterlinfa any further developments on this one? I’d love to hear if you submitted for shinsa and the results.