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Shin-Gunto Research , what do i have?


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#1 Scott M

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 07:15 PM

Hello community, this is my first post here and I wish to apologize if i mess something up. I am not a historian or military collector. I have come into possession via hand me down  within the family of what i believe to be a late war Shin-Gunto. 

Can those more experienced in these items please assist me in identifying the writing and markings on the item and validating if its a reproduction or real? 

I took the time to learn how to disassemble one and made some notes, i am still learning the part terminology. 

The Blade was attached to the handle via a screw close to the hilt and a wooden dowel at the other end. The grip binding was overlapping the dowel so i had to carefully slide it enough to free the dowel.

I have not cleaned the item at all and left all dirt and rust still on it. Its covered in heavy dust especially around the hilt guard.

I could not find any serial number on the blade or scabbard. Attached are the images of the item.

 

Thank you for your assistance.

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#2 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 07:44 PM

Scott,

This model has no official designation, though most people call I t a type 44, or contingency model. Yours is dated January 19 45. It’s not really accurate to call them “late war” because they were commissioned in 1938 and started seeing production around 1941. They were designed to be a cheaper yet more hearty version of the type 98 officers sword.

Someone else can give you the Smith name, as I’m not good at that.

#3 Dave R

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 09:42 PM

 The tsuba (guard) is almost certainly a replacement, wrong pattern for the rest of the sword, and definite signs of it being altered to fit. A lot more information about this type here...    http://www.warrelics...version-584796/


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Dave


#4 Scott M

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 10:14 PM

Hi,

Thanks for the article ,

Do you think the guard replacement was done at the time of manufacture due to shortage of others? or was done after some time?

What would the original guard look like?



#5 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 11:15 PM

Somebody correct me if wrong, but the Smith could be:
義近 (Yoshichika)

Hard to say about the tsuba, without knowing more of it’s story. In my opinion it’s more likely a post-war effort to replace a missing original. The original was a flat disc:2AE25E48-79AE-4D3A-A469-6EBD17476C4E.png
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#6 BANGBANGSAN

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 11:41 PM

Somebody correct me if wrong, but the Smith could be:
義近 (Yoshichika)

Hard to say about the tsuba, without knowing more of it’s story. In my opinion it’s more likely a post-war effort to replace a missing original. The original was a flat disc:attachicon.gif2AE25E48-79AE-4D3A-A469-6EBD17476C4E.png

Smith is 俊治(Toshiharu)


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Trystan


#7 dwmc

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 12:41 AM

Appears to also have very light struck Gi and Seki Stamps??


Dave 


#8 Scott M

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 01:57 AM

Appears to also have very light struck Gi and Seki Stamps??

Hello,

Where are those located? I will get more detail images of the tang if i know what i am looking for. Is there something i can use to high light the stamps or markings thats not harmful to the blade? 

 

Also with regards to the wrong tsuba, should i attempt to procure a correct one to make it whole or leave it as is?

If i did try to get one what would the accurate description of what i would be asking for?



#9 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 05:28 AM

Scott,

The two are circled in the pic I'm attaching. Just a straight-on, focused picture of those, if you can.

As to replacement, I would personally do it if I could find one. The small seppa (spacers either side of the larger one) look original, so all you'd need is the tsuba.

Try Crimson Mist: http://www.cmmilitar...arch.php?pcat=3, or Gunto Art Swords http://www.guntoartswords.com for starters.Screenshot_20190408-212433_Chrome.png

And I would simply email them to ask about it. They both respond quickly to emails.
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#10 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 05:35 AM

The tsuba looks like the large circular one in this picture:20171010_054104.jpg
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#11 Dave R

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 02:17 PM

 My bad, I forgot that Mr Komiya is a documents man rather than a picture poster. You might find this link more informative...   http://ohmura-study.net/952.html


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Dave


#12 Scott M

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 04:32 PM

 My bad, I forgot that Mr Komiya is a documents man rather than a picture poster. You might find this link more informative...   http://ohmura-study.net/952.html

Oh that's a great site!, 

SO looking at the images my blade looks closest to the STANDARD #1 and #3. My definitely has a Metal skin scabbard with wood inside. 


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#13 dwmc

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 07:03 PM

https://www.ebay.com...ope!83634!US!-1

 

This Tsuba  could possibly be what your looking for. Not sure how standard Type 44 fittings are. Ask for precise measurements.

 

Good luck,

 

Dave M.


Dave 


#14 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 08:42 PM

I bet the overall size is pretty uniform. You’ll likely have to do a little file work in the slit for a good fit.

#15 vajo

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 08:47 PM

The tsuba was customized to fit for the sword. It is not original. Try to get a iron type 3 tsuba for your sword.



#16 vajo

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 08:50 PM

This one:

 

https://www.ebay.com...GcAAOSwl2xcoMTO

 

Oh i see it was posted before. Sorry.



#17 Scott M

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 09:22 PM

what about this one as well?

https://www.antiqueswords.com/product/BQ3184/A-Fine-WWII-Period-Japanese-Type-44-Shin-Gunto-Mounted-Katana-Tsuba.html

 

Though this one looks more rusty than the ebay one.

 

Also is the Tsuba i currently have basically ruined due to the fitting work done or is it possible to trade or sell? 



#18 Scott M

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Posted 10 April 2019 - 02:43 AM

Hi all, 

I took some new images of all the markings found, I think i found arsenal stamps.

I also posted clearer images of all the text in the translation section. I have added clored arrows showing the full profile of the side and the location found and then a closeup. There is a Stamp i discovered along the back of the Tang i had not seen before. 

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#19 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 10 April 2019 - 05:23 AM

Ok, Scott, that baby is really stamped up, isn't it!

Red - Gifu
Blue - Seki (probably)
Yellow - Gifu (probably)
Orange - Some smiths numbered their blades, reason unknown
Yellow circle - Too lightly struck to tell.SmartSelect_20190409-211526_Word.jpg SmartSelect_20190409-212012_Chrome.jpg

#20 Brian

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Posted 10 April 2019 - 09:22 AM

Main point is that it is an arsenal blade, not traditionally made. So nice to get it complete, but don't overspend.


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#21 Dave R

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Posted 10 April 2019 - 02:29 PM

what about this one as well?

https://www.antiqueswords.com/product/BQ3184/A-Fine-WWII-Period-Japanese-Type-44-Shin-Gunto-Mounted-Katana-Tsuba.html

 

Though this one looks more rusty than the ebay one.

 

Also is the Tsuba i currently have basically ruined due to the fitting work done or is it possible to trade or sell? 

 Saleable.


Dave


#22 Scott M

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Posted 10 April 2019 - 04:19 PM

Main point is that it is an arsenal blade, not traditionally made. So nice to get it complete, but don't overspend.

Indeed, knowing what i know now which is exponentially more than i did a week ago, I definitely will be trying to restore it with an original tsuba . Ideally i'll try to trade or sell the tsuba i have to hopefully cover part of the cost of the replacement. The community here has been most awesomely helpful. 


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#23 Scott M

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 02:08 AM

Hi all, 

Got the replacement Tsuba for my Type44, Thanks Mark!. It matches perfectly to the rest of the attachments. Now looking at the one that was on it originally i can clearly see now it was not meant for this sword.

The attached image shows the amount that needs to be filed away (what lies within the yellow line.) 

Testing the fit it only slides down the tang about 3/4 of the way.

I used my top Seppa as a guide. It appears i need to remove about a millimeter from the three sides, perhaps a hair more form the spine edge.

 

What is the best way to file this material?, by hand or possibly using some type of mechanical tool like a dremmel perhaps??

If by hand what type of file is needed to do the work required, i am assuming a round needle file of sorts but wanted to hear what others have used?

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#24 lambo35

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 02:36 AM

I would use a good quality, fine tooth flat metal file that will fit into the current opening. Hold the tsuba firm in a padded vice while filing. It wouldn't hurt to also have available a set of small metal files of various shapes, flat, square, triangular and round. You just never know when a different shape will be needed. :) Take you time and fit often!

 

Chuck


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#25 Dave R

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 10:33 AM

 Hand tools only... bitter experience has taught me that power tools enable mistakes to be made much faster than with hand tools.


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#26 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 11:11 AM

Yes, good fine flat file, check frequently against tang with the top seppa and habaki on.


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#27 Windy

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 10:27 PM

“Measure twice, cut once”

Get a decent set of needle/hobby files...tool steel. They’re not expensive.
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Cheers, Matt

#28 vajo

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 10:11 AM

With a file it dont take long. Its very easy. Dont take to much material of the plate. Look often if it fits.

#29 Scott M

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 04:52 PM

Its done and i think it looks great!

Here is the final replacement of the Tsuba and how it looks. 

Filing was strait forward and the fit is snug. Hows it look?

Blade was cleaned with alcohol and then lightly oiled with 3in1. Had no access to Chioji oil. 

Overall the blade looks much nicer now with the appropriate Tsuba.

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#30 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 07:19 PM

Wow, Scott, that came out perfectly! Looks original. Nice job!
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