correlation of flaws with age?

[nickm]

So started wondering about generally how age determines value as it correlates to flaws. My question in a more pointed way would be how do flaws affect your opiniins when looking at things in kamakura and earlier? Is it considered regardless of age that a blade with a lot of flaws was poorly made or could excessive pollishings over the course make a beautiful blade fill with kizu? I have been reading on it and have seen some opinions that a fatal flaw is not always fatal in the certain blades and things of that sort but in a mumei old blade do a bunch of flaws make it not worth the trouble? Other than of course the general excitement of holding something 700 years old

[Katsujinken]

Darcy has written about this articulately and extensively, but, basically, the older a blade is, and the more prestigious the school/maker, the less a flaw should detract from its value (or paper potential).

 

To be clear, this scale is exponential, and remains relatively flat til you are well into Nanbokucho territory.

 

Anything Muromachi or younger and the flaws deduct value (aesthetic and otherwise) quickly.

 

Shinto and onward better be perfect.

[Ken-Hawaii]

 

Shinto and onward better be perfect.

And signed.

[Katsujinken]

And signed.

Yes indeed!

[Surfson]

Perfect explanation Michael.   Just to add that there are a few reasons for this.  One is the ravages of age.  Many Heian or Kamakura blades have very thin or missing boshi due to repair of breaks in the kissaki, or the machi has worn away.  A second reason is that many centuries of polishing removes the skin steel and exposes core steel and flaws along the way.  The third main reason is that in very old blades, especially Heian period, the forging was more crude, and as a result the grain was more likely to be large and have inclusions or other flaws.

[nickm]

I appreciate the replies. Michael could you point me in the direction of what I should search to read up on Darcys thoughts about this subject?

[Katsujinken]

I appreciate the replies. Michael could you point me in the direction of what I should search to read up on Darcys thoughts about this subject?

Some good stuff in this recent thread: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/27429-captured-wwii-sword/?view=getnewpost&fromsearch=1

 

Otherwise, head over to his website, yuhindo.com, and read read read.

[nickm]

Yes that's an amazing thread and find. I have read through it a couple times now and just get more and more envious of George as the thread evolves.. Thank you for the link to Darcy's website. Let the reading begin

[nickm]

A large part of the reason for asking the question is there a few things that are exciting to me about this hobby one of which being age and I have quickly come to realization that I will never be able to embody all of my favorite traits in 1 sword until I win the lottery. That said is it in a rational thought to think of finding a sword with a significant amount of flaws from say the 1200s that would be attainable for relatively low dollars 2000+- or would age likely bring about expense to varying degrees regardless of condition?

[raynor]

Maybe a unpapered tanto or wakizashi once a blue moon. Or an unpapared katana every leap year unless you are willing to buy close to garbage.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Nick, you don't want to go there. You may not know it yet, but that's not the way to learn.

[nickm]

Part of my interest in it is I would like to as a manner of collecting have something from each century feasable and I have made it as far as the 14th century but I do not think finances will allow me something of good quality theoretically speaking in the 13th century as well.

 

I wouldn't say I am looking for something fundamentally important or all that educational in my 13th century blade but I would love to have something kamakura. My assumption for at least the near future is the only way of accommodating that is to forego quality for age..

 

Hoping to come across something without fatal flaws that is at least properly shaped for the era that I could maybe convince myself may check that Box off of the list

[nickm]

Or at least I am waiting on the March shinsa results in hopes of having found my 14th century blade

[Surfson]

For $2000+, you can buy some nice pieces that are not terribly flawed.  You just have to be persistent and patient.

[Vermithrax16]

Or at least I am waiting on the March shinsa results in hopes of having found my 14th century blade

So you sent an older blade to shinsa (who was the intermediate?) yet are still asking about era correct swords for 2k?

[nickm]

I got

So you sent an older blade to shinsa (who was the intermediate?) yet are still asking about era correct swords for 2k?

Yeah I got a kosori daito from bob benson that we then sent for shinsa last month. Hoping for nambokucho tsuneie as that is the old papers but we will see.

 

Definitely wont have that kinda money to throw around for anything earlier so thinking of again foregoing the quality aspect for the sake of 13th century potential on a budget...

 

Might never come about but one of the new things I will keep my eye out for I guess..

[Rivkin]

Koto blades in general will have flaws, and in quite a few cases those are tolerable vis-a-vis pricing. Andy Quirt had a good article in Tampa Show journal on severity of flaws, unfortunately I have not seen it on the net.

This being said there are cases where some believe flaws to be kantei point.

Small sharp ware are sort of kantei point for Hankei.

Fukure are believed by some to be kantei point for Masamune. Meaning that Norishige and Soshu Yukimitsu are less likely to exhibit this particular flaw.

 

2000$ will buy you a Kamakura blade with Major issues. Either out of polish decent example from a not-so-prestigious school (Mihara?), or polished but bordering on upaperable.

 

Kirill R.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Here is where it gets slightly tricky as attributions are not sometimes really easy to understand. I thought the sword you have was an early Muromachi katana and attribution was Bizen Tsuneie. While it is true that 1st generation Tsuneie is written down as Ōan period smith, most of the works attributed / signed Tsuneie date to Muromachi period. I have 7 signed Tsuneie swords that date to early Muromachi in my database (I have skipped mumei for this smith as they continue onwards to 1500's), the dates range from 1426 to 1451. I know there is a mention in Seskos of a sword dated 1408 but I have not yet encountered that one.

 

Of course the opinion of Bob Benson also weighs a lot and he has had this sword in hand.

 

Having specific school does not indicate specific age in case of some schools. Which makes things bit complicated as schools can span through multiple eras. You must also study the specific sword and make your opinion where do you put the sword and what the attributing body has had in mind when giving the attribution, as for example NBTHK does not usually specify era on their basic attributions.

 

Unless you are really lucky finding a worthwhile Kamakura blade for 2000$'s will not happen easily. I think the key word properly shaped for the period will reduce options a lot.

[Rich S]

Are you talking about swords and/or people? The older I get, the more flaws I have. :-)

Rich

[nickm]

Yeah doesn't seem like there are any works of the 1st generation that I can find. Bob thinks it is going to be a different kosori Smith, I am currently having a hard time placing which one he said it is likely to be in his opinion but he said he thinks it to be around 1375 era sword. Here's hoping I guess as of course if it hits muromachi being mumei we stop at tbh. Either way I love the sword and can't wait to get my hands on it but of course the dreams of Juyo are always there..

[nickm]

And as always I appreciate the replies and opinions

[Valric]

Flaws are indeed kantei points. In this discussion I find it useful to break down flaws into their sources to understand how we should value them. Something to keep in mind is that in Koto and Heian, there no such thing as a death sentence. It's all a balancing act and you can think about it as scoring and losing points, without any flaws setting value immediately to zero. This is hard to comprehend and it becomes more true the older the blade and the more desirable the maker.  

 

Lamination flaws: Ware, Fukure

 

These flaws can be unearthed by repeated polishing. It's possible that the sword in its original state did not have such flaws. They do not pose a threat to the functional integrity of the blade, and they can be quite well corrected by the best polishers. These become a bigger problem when the sword is very tired and the shingane comes out. Generally, ware are very much disliked in the west, and in Japan that's not so much the case. In my opinion the presence of ware and a tired blade together impinge the value more than the sum of their part. For top koto swords, you can be sure that they've had the beauty treatment to minimize these flaws. 

 

Tiredness flaws: Shingane coming out, Kasane too thin, toothpick impression

 

This is the big one. Healthy (kenzen) is a huge factor in getting Tokuju for an old sword. This is what sets aside Juyo from Tokuju on top schools. Study the health of a blade carefully. Beware of shortened 'Kodachi' and other euphemism for toothpicks. 

 

Functional flaws: Crack in the cutting edge, interruption in the hamon, chips that interrupts the hamon, no Boshi

 

These hurt the most. Nothing can be done to correct the blade, no amount of polishing, it is what it is. A sword that must be retired because it loses all functional value. Does it make sense nowadays to value swords on the basis of their functional merit is a different question altogether. Does that drop the value of the blade immediately to zero? Absolutely not. Think at minimum that the blade should be worth its equivalent as a shortened mumei wakizachi minus the cost of the restoration. Does this bring the value of great many koto blades to zero? Yeah, it does. Value is Zero for Ko-Mihara, but it remains in the low six figures for a Masamune. Be meticulous in examining the Boshi. This is where makeup can really hurt you. It's possible to make a near indistinguishable thin boshi line with expert polishing. 

 

Accidental: Retempered blade

 

That's a tricky one. If it's a retempered by Yasutsugu following the Osaka castle fire or by Naotane's teacher and its been documented then we're talking about very unique pieces with a great value to begin with. there is also one retempered short sword by Awataguchi Yoshimitsu. It's the only non-tanto piece left by him. Now as you go down the ladder of rarity it starts to chip off value exponentially, and to be fair I don't understand it very well but I'd stay away from all the borderline juyo school with risk of rempetered blade (Mihara, Uda, Enju, Tegai, etc). 

 

Proper useage: Kirikomi

 

This one is interesting. In my opinion, Kirikomi are neutral in value, and turn positive if the sword has a history and these kirikomi can be attributed to battles fought by its past owner. A Kirikomi is not just a battle mark (like a chip) it's the sign that the sword has been used to properly parry a blow. It denotes skill and increases the value of the item as a historical artifact.