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Nobumasa Tsuba


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#1 menpo

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 10:40 PM

Hi all.
I came across this tsuba recently and I thought some of you might like to see it. When I first purchased it I had no idea it would be as old as it was. I initially had it down as mid to late Edo as the condition Was fantastic. It came in a custom fitted box and the the seller didn't have a great deal to say about it other than it was signed "Nobusada" which of course, it wasn't . After establishing the signature was Nobumasa I began my research. Unfortunately I couldn't find anything in any of my books to give me any information. It seemed so well made that I found it hard to believe that this man wouldn't have been recorded somewhere. Eventually I found him, Of course I was looking at the wrong period of time to start with. This Nobumasa in fact is momoyama period and said to be a student of the famous Nobuyie. Also with some help I managed to locate a photograph of an almost identical tsuba that was part of the Oeder collection in Germany at the turn of the century, which is also signed by the same man. Unfortunately, the collection went missing in 1945 and has never been seen since. I think this one would be a reasonable candidate to send to shinsa. Has anyone here seen any examples of this mans work? Any thoughts or comments would be much appreciated.

Gethin

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#2 STEVES87

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 12:38 AM

Not the same, but somewhat similar. This is currently for sale on the internet. I can forward you a link if you are interested.

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#3 kissakai

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 11:22 AM

This is one of my mumei tsuba

Described as Shoami with 'sand' garden

 

T237 (1).JPG

 

 

 


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#4 Brian Ayres

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 02:49 PM

That’s a great find. It’s an aesthetically appealing tsuba. You look at it and you can’t help but smile.
Best Regards,

Brian Ayres

#5 Dojikiri

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 03:45 PM

I believe that the Oeder collection is now in the Hermitage Museum in Saint Petersburg having been looted by the Russians after WW2.


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#6 johnnyi

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 09:09 PM

Hi Gethin. really nice find! Here is my example of Nobumasa. I also have been looking for a while , but other than the Oeder collection (kindly pointed out to me by our member Christian M.)  this example of your'[s is the only other one I've seen. .  Your discovery provides the first time I think to actually  to compare  signatiures, as the Oeder picture is too poor as you know.   Kind regards,   Johnnyi

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#7 Pete Klein

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 09:30 PM

Different mei = different makers


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#8 johnnyi

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 10:22 PM

Hi Pete. Yes, they do seem to be different makers. Mine was identified as the earlier Nobumasa due to the 1500's date .   I regret I don't have the translation of the entire tsuba anymore, but would you or somebody else be able to  translate the entire mei please?    Is there anywhere a clear photo of the Oeder example, as the catalogue photo shows nothing.  regards, John


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#9 Pete Klein

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 10:52 PM

Same kanji but struck differently = different makers most likely from different time periods.  The kanji are different in execution.


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#10 johnnyi

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 12:13 AM

"Tensho three" (1575)  thank you member Uwe Sacklowski          Regards,  Johnnyi


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#11 Pete Klein

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 12:59 AM

You definitely need to send that tsuba into the NBTHK for shinsa and then let us all know the results.


“It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense.”
— Mark Twain


#12 johnnyi

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 01:31 AM

Pete, I definitely think Gethin should send his in and I'll send mine in too.    J.



#13 Curran

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 02:04 AM

:popcorn:


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#14 menpo

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 02:22 AM

Hi everyone.
Thanks to everyone for their input. I'll definitely be sending it to the NBTHK soon. I have two other tsuba that need papering so it can go at the same time.

Gethin

#15 Peter Bleed

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 03:19 AM

I am blown away by this DATED Nobufusa. It requires lots of rethinking - on my part! I have generally felt that bi-lobed tsuba - which John Lissenden called  "Auriculate" - were a feature of the the Namban style - and further that they were copied/inspired from European small sword guards. That would place them comfortably in the 18th century. But, TAHHDAHHH here is a strongly auriculate tsuba dated in the 1500s.  The world is a complex place, I guess.

Peter


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#16 Curran

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 02:54 PM

I am blown away by this DATED Nobufusa. It requires lots of rethinking - on my part! I have generally felt that bi-lobed tsuba - which John Lissenden called  "Auriculate" - were a feature of the the Namban style - and further that they were copied/inspired from European small sword guards. That would place them comfortably in the 18th century. But, TAHHDAHHH here is a strongly auriculate tsuba dated in the 1500s.  The world is a complex place, I guess.

 

We have auriculated guards dated placed in the early to mid 17th century, but Y-E-S that was my exact first thought at seeing this dated one. Sort of a "woah, wait a minute there".

While we see examples of guns in some 16th century fittings, we haven't seen many other evidences of western styling.

I hope the signature is legit. Dr. Lissenden would have enjoyed this thread.

 

About 2 years ago I acquired, researched, and then late last year Tokubetsu Hozon'ed a tsuba that predates common teachings on the origin period of a school by about 100 years.

It probably stops there with being a good brain teaser to those I show it, but I increasingly accept some of Sasano's 'aggressive' dating.

 

Johnnyi's is another good brain scratcher.

The finish to the signature gives me pause, as I associate that with much later dating. Still, this should be interesting.


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#17 MauroP

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 03:10 PM

Peter, why do you assume that Nanban means the 18th century? Actually the "Namban fashion" was mainly en vogue  in the second half of 16th - early 17th century (anyway I don't think  Johnny's tsuba fit in Namban box).

Mauro


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#18 johnnyi

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 03:43 PM

We have auriculated guards dated placed in the early to mid 17th century, but Y-E-S that was my exact first thought at seeing this dated one. Sort of a "woah, wait a minute there".

While we see examples of guns in some 16th century fittings, we haven't seen many other evidences of western styling.

I hope the signature is legit. Dr. Lissenden would have enjoyed this thread.

 

About 2 years ago I acquired, researched, and then late last year Tokubetsu Hozon'ed a tsuba that predates common teachings on the origin period of a school by about 100 years.

It probably stops there with being a good brain teaser to those I show it, but I increasingly accept some of Sasano's 'aggressive' dating.

 

Johnnyi's is another good brain scratcher.

The finish to the signature gives me pause, as I associate that with much later dating. Still, this should be interesting.

 

Hi Curran, I have always  wanted to get it checked out also. Although  I don't (want to) believe the signature was "added" (there is a lower punch mark on the nakago ana which slightly deforms the last stroke, seeming to indicate the signature was there before it was mounted), it is the reasons stated; that it seems to predate a known style that demands a cautious look. Yet, looking through M.Sesko's "Nobuie" book last night I see several other kind of whacky tsuba I would not  have expected, (number 129 in the first group of rubbings for instance, though that might be reaching) When you say, "the finish" to the signature, please what exactly does that  mean?   Thanks, John



#19 Curran

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 04:09 PM

John,

 

~tsukuru kore    (made this)

 

I expect that on 1800s tsuba, not 1500s tsuba.


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#20 Pete Klein

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 04:30 PM

Be aware this date and that 'tsukuru kore' are highly suspicious and may very well be gimei.  You should know this going in as although the tsuba could be shoshin and get papered it also might not.  Curran added while I was typing and his was my thought as well along with that tsuba were so rarely signed let alone dated prior to Edo shoki that it sends off a warning sign.  Nobuie and Kaneie pretty much started naming tsuba and they were working Momoyama jidai.

 

PS:  It is considered VERY POOR FORM to go back and edit posts once replies have been posted.  It throws off the flow of the thread and can make the following posts appear misguided.  This has happened several times in this thread which is why I mention it.  If you need to add or change information then create a new post to the thread.


“It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense.”
— Mark Twain


#21 TETSUGENDO

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 04:40 PM

All things considered, there's a fair chance this is a 19th C. "revival" piece

 

-S-


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#22 johnnyi

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 05:00 PM

Thanks for the invaluable help on this Peter,  Curran, and Steven, and I apologize Gethin,  for a probable  imposter tsuba hijacking your post.  Best of luck on getting yours papered.  John   



#23 TETSUGENDO

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:24 PM

Johnnyi,

 

It's still a nicely made and interesting piece, just not exactly what it purports to be.

 

-S-


StevenK





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