Koa Isshin With Nthk Papers

[Shamsy]

I disagree, Paul. At least in so far as I am enjoying the discussion regarding terminology and would like to see it continue.

 

I do agree though that this thread has been otherwise derailed. Perhaps an administrator would kindly snip the thread, leaving one to discuss Kao Isshin and creating one for terminologies?

[PNSSHOGUN]

I think a separate papering system for Gunto swords would be quite important, starting with the best (Gensui-To, Imperial Gifts, named Generals swords, Shrine swords etc) and moving downwards in terms of provenance, condition and quality.

[reeder]

Seems this discussion occurs every couple of years... the definitions and use of the words have been well established. We all know, depending on context that showato is either a showa period sword or non-traditionally made blade. No need to reinvent the wheel here.

 

I imagine any of the stuff listed would be papered with the current groups as most of that stuff seems generally to be gendaito anyways. I doubt they’re not going to paper gunto fittings, but who knows? Who would bother papering gunto mounts? Or seki/showa stamped blades? It’s hard enough to get people to spend money on buying gunto let alone pay someone to tell them it’s real when you have all the forums and other online groups who authenticate stuff for free all the time. Would there be enough business potential to justify spending the time & money training or hiring those?

[16k]

So, it seems the new trend continues, as seen in this topic:

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/28783-seki-to-with-hozon-certification/

[Beater]

So, it seems the new trend continues, as seen in this topic:

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/28783-seki-to-with-hozon-certification/

You beat me to it. What is the point to all this?

[David Flynn]

John, I think you will find that all the type of swords you listed, would all be traditionally made blades and as such, would paper anyway.

[Ooitame]

So a nihongendaishowarikugunto it is then...

[Bruce Pennington]

So a nihongendaishowarikugunto it is then...

I love it!!! Ha! And using the Japanese practice of creating a shorter name, taking the first syllable and last, combined .... we have ni-to! neeto, get it?!

[zook]

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Just watched a youtube documentary on a Japanese National Treasure smith named Kawachi - "Master and his last disciple". Toward the end, they get in touch with his #1 and #2 disciples. The #1, Takami, is using a hydraulic hammer to make his blades! How can his blades ever rate a paper considering the post-WWII rating system for "traditionally made" blades?

 

Part of the documentary's discussion is the slow death of the swordsmith craft. Kawachi-san had 1, that's ONE disciple during filming. Takami, while they didn't discuss it on film, looked like he was working alone. How can a smith hope to make a "traditionally made" blade without apprentices to hammer and do other chores?

 

I really do feel, as we've covered already, that it is time to revamp the rating criteria. But, hey, I'm no nihonto guy.

[David Flynn]

Bruce, this has been happening since the power hammer was introduced.  I'ts just accepted. Even during the war (and probably brfore) this was occurring.  Of course it's used by most of the Modern Smiths.  One reason, is it gives them more control.  Another reason is, the lack of apprentices.

[PNSSHOGUN]

It seems smiths using 100% traditional techniques are getting few and far between. If memory serves me right Yoshindo Yoshihara still uses 100% manpower on his swords.

[Brian]

I don't think modern tools and power hammers disqualifies against "traditionally made"
Basically tamagagane is the most important requisite, and water quenching. Tradition doesn't mean you can't move with the times..within reason.

[PNSSHOGUN]

No machine assisted forging is still "pure" traditional sword making and always will be. Either way it still does not bother me that modern power hammers are used whatsoever, to me the 100% traditional way is simply more impressive in an age where modern machines are widely used by smiths of all skill and rank.

[16k]

I do believe that it’s also a question of age. Even if machine assisted, modern swords are an important part of Japanese sword history, a history that may come to an end more quickly than we think with the lack of apprentices.

 

I think it’s only a question of time before the rating system is modified to include a section for important, non traditional swords, worthy to be preserved. You can’t just dismiss a whole aspect of sword history like that. They are the victims of laws put in place after the war and which were trying to find a way to preserve a craft and an important aspect of Japanese culture.

 

But war is over and those swords are beginning to be more than weapons too. They’re becoming antiques and one day will be recognized as such. It’s just a question of time.

[vajo]

In some years the first Swords of WW2 will be antique, over 100 years. The future for wartime gendaito becomes brighter every year.

[Bruce Pennington]

Well, Ok. For some reason, I had gotten it in my head that use of a machine, even if the steel was tamahagne, disqualified a blade as being nihonto for rating purposes. I reviewed Fuller's list of 9 methods and it doesn't actually say that. He uses the term "fully hand made" but even that term is open to variation - a sledgehammer isn't a "hand", it's a tool, as would a hydraulic hammer be a tool. "Traditional" might eliminate the hydraulic hammer. But then, the real source of the answer are the Shinsa organizations themselves.

 

I personnaly feel the same as you all do, I simply had gotten it in my head from somewhere that nihonto had to be made with aprentices weilding hammers. So, actually, it's just tamahagane, water quenched.

 

Thanks for clearing that up!

[David Flynn]

Bruce, how would they know if a power hammer was used?

[Bruce Pennington]

Bruce, how would they know if a power hammer was used?

Right. It's likely an effect of the language that gets thrown around constantly - "manchine made" vs "hand made". A hydraulic hammer is a machine. The more I heard these terms, the more my mind simply imprinted "machine invovled, then showato." I understand now, thanks.

[David Flynn]

As far as I'm aware, the only true "Machine Made" Blades are NCO, drop forged.  the "Showato", are usually folded, but not as many times as the Gendaito.  Then oil tempered, instead of water.  Some "Showato", with varying stamps, posses, Hada and Habuchi. Why do these have Showa  or Seki Stamps, I don't know.  I believe the term, using non traditional materials doesn't really stack up.  Instances of such swords, when the stamps have been carefully removed, have papered?

One could go Psycho, trying to work it out.

Here is a good case in point.  Ikkansai Kunimori, according to Chris Bowen, are non- tradionally made.  They don't have stamps and they paper.

[Death-Ace]

Love this topic, very informational. I always wondered about if and when non-traditionally made blades would have intentional/non-crooked papers. As we've sene with Emura/Nagamitsu blades, once given a traditional polish, some come out with beautiful hada. I agree on the sentiment that NCO Gunto are about the only true machine made. Even some of the non-tempered "showato" had some form of hands-on creating. A good point was brought up about Kanbun blades or even Mikasa-to. Traditional made, but not traditional steel. Surely noted on papers, but still steel nonethelees.

 

Does the material make a difference if the technique is the same? Some say yes or no, but I consider a FULLY traditionally made sword made with all Japanese materials. Just like how provinces of old had their own. I'm half-Filipino, but I'm not joining every Filipino society out there claiming the superiority of lumpia or spring rolls.

 

Koa-Isshin is considered by some as the pinnacle of the Japanese combat sword. Some examples seem to have a hada after a polish that does much wear to stones. But maybe this is just a ploy depending on the togishi or other "polisher." As a military artifact, preserve. As art, what art? Mechanical art, maybe.

 

This makes me think. I just started writing an article comparing nihonto to closest firearm it could compare to, the ETO equivalent Luger. Lugers were made for 45 years prior to the last German surrender with all variations and some quality changes. And there are still some made by companies/individuals. DWM and Krieghoffs are the most beautifully fit and finished, and even then, all lugers were "handmade!" We attempt to resist refinish/rearsenal depending on condition, but the rust blue, fire-blued, amd strawed parts are beyond reproach. They are as much a weapon as they are mechanical pieces of art in this day and age. And depending on who, factory or private engravings are make it even more so.

 

All the same, look at old Colts, some look butt ugly/machines, but add some engraving, and man are they purty!

 

It is agreed, that while Nihonto/Lugers are now considered pieces of art, all had the purpose of being able to be utilized (some today, ie: reblued luger/remounted "common" gendaito). Of course, I wouldn't want to use a mint Ko-Bizen Tachi or a Mint 1936 Krieghoff P.08! Or a pistol with enough engraving to damn near ruin the structure or an engraved alloy pistol.

 

What matters now is preservation and separation. All were weapons, military or civilian, presentation or Most kazuuchimono won't cut it to be called art, even though looking at some Uda blades, even with the rough forging in quite a few Muromachi examples, it is a treat. All deserve to be enjoyed, just be sure what it is you are enjoying and classify it ad is or both if warranted.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Another one with papers from same seller: http://www.Japanese-sword-katana.jp/katana/1910-1104.htm

[Bruce Pennington]

Another one with papers from same seller: http://www.Japanese-sword-katana.jp/katana/1910-1104.htm

Thanks John!

[Ooitame]

This again seems to be the NTHK NPO, does anyone know of the NBTHK, or NTHKs position?

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's some food for thought. A document from right after the war, discussing swords classified as national treasures and works of art. Paragraph 1.b. lists a sword without signature but said to be made by a guy named "Isshin"! Ha!

 

So, a Japanese official actually listed the Koa Isshin as an important work of art!? Hmmmmm.

 

 

This comes from the Articles section: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/forum/57-nt-and-iao-list-and-sword-documents-by-us-gov-1945-1950/

[16k]

Gotta be a spelling error for “ichi” and the Ichimonji school who only signed their swords with the number 1

[BANGBANGSAN]

There is a Showa smith name 一心  Isshin  ，civilian name 谷川慶治 Tanigawa Yoshiharu,he is on the list of 軍刀（昭和刀）関鍛治刀匠名簿232名(  232 rigistered Seki Smith name book who make Gunto/Showa To).

He use signature:一心，谷川一心 and 関谷川一心作。

http://www.touken-kasugado.com/faq_2.html

 

 

 

 

Here's some food for thought. A document from right after the war, discussing swords classified as national treasures and works of art. Paragraph 1.b. lists a sword without signature but said to be made by a guy named "Isshin"! Ha!

So, a Japanese official actually listed the Koa Isshin as an important work of art!? Hmmmmm.

SmartSelect_20190927-064701_Adobe Acrobat.jpg

This comes from the Articles section: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/forum/57-nt-and-iao-list-and-sword-documents-by-us-gov-1945-1950/

[Bruce Pennington]

Rats, what a killjoy! Couldn’t even enjoy my fantasy for 24 hours.

[BANGBANGSAN]

Rats, what a killjoy! Couldn’t even enjoy my fantasy for 24 hours.

More like 5 hours .Anyway,I think KOA ISSIN MANTETSU swords are great Gunto,many Japanese officers like them.Many collectors love KOA ISSIN swords as well,and I am one of them.

[16k]

And I seriously doubt any sword made during WW2, Koa Isshin or just the other guy, Isshin, would be considered an important work of art, not at that time anyway!